How Can Women Lawyers Redefine Law Firm Marketing Strategy? with Davina Frederick

Davina Frederick (00:01.378)
Hi, I’m Davina Frederick and I’m the founder of Wealthy Woman Lawyer. We are an organization that helps women law firm owners scale their law firm businesses to and through seven figures in gross annual revenue. I’m happy to be here.

Karin Conroy (00:15.238)
I am so happy to have you here, Davina. Your name comes up all the time because you’ve got such an awesome, defined, narrow, targeted brand and it’s so well done. So I’m excited to have this conversation. We have so much to talk about. So let me first say the title for today’s show is How Do Female Founders Redefine Marketing for Million Dollar Law Firms? So let’s start first with this idea of

Davina Frederick (00:30.636)
Thank you. Thank you.

Karin Conroy (00:44.602)
Why are we only talking about women? I mean, you and I are both women, so I feel like I’m kind of an expert. But why, I’m sure you get this question all the time, but why, why do you only work with women?

Davina Frederick (00:46.766)
Right, right, right, exactly.

Davina Frederick (00:57.291)
It’s so interesting because I think from the male perspective, it may seem like, well, you’re a man hater, right? It’s really not that. It really is just providing a place for just women because I do think for decades, for hundreds of years, there have been places just for men to nurture and their careers and network and that kind of thing. so for me, I just, I…

Karin Conroy (01:05.329)
Yes!

Davina Frederick (01:24.886)
I have coached men law firm owners as well as women. I’ve coached other types of professional service business owners. But what I found was that when I began to gather people into groups, that the conversation was different when it was just women than when it was men and women. And I know that men today share some of the responsibility for parenting and things like that. Whereas in my generation, Gen X, that really was not as common. We were kind of the

Karin Conroy (01:42.597)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (01:54.081)
leaders of that sort of movement. I just know that like women still do 90 % of the mental house, the mental work for running their households, including parenting. And there’s a biological component to women sort of being the birth givers and then feeling that attachment to children and what, how they’re going to be parents to those children. And it’s different than it is with men, not to say that men

Karin Conroy (02:05.798)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (02:23.178)
aren’t also great parents to their children and that kind of thing. But so, and that’s one aspect. Another aspect are things like what it’s like to be a woman in a predominantly male workplace or male field and what kinds of things that, you know, we want to see different, right? When with us owning the business. So I remember very well working for male owned businesses and in the nineties and

Karin Conroy (02:34.692)
Yes. Yes.

Karin Conroy (02:42.062)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (02:51.313)
Yup.

Davina Frederick (02:52.035)
there was a lot of just kind of commonplace sort of behavior that today would be characterized as sexual harassment or something like that. Like it was just so, it wasn’t something that we really did anything about other than just learn how to laugh politely and walk away, you know, like get yourself out of, right? And so there are just a lot of things about.

Karin Conroy (03:10.83)
Yes. Yeah, I feel like you can even, yeah. even when we look back at movies and stuff, I have two relatively small kids. And when we show them movies, if we show them movies from like the eighties or nineties, we often have to kind of quickly do a Google search to see that there were different standards and it was okay to say things in a different way. In the same way that it was totally different in the fifties and the sixties, you know, but in that era,

it was different and it was definitely different for women and it was, there were roadblocks, there were challenges and just kind of systemic issues. So it was kind of like you read my mind in the end of what you were talking about there, because the next part I wanted to talk about were what were some of those traditional roadblocks? And I want to kind of, kind of quickly introduce where I want to go with this. I feel like where our conversation is going to head is into this kind of broken

legal industry and the way things were traditionally done versus the things you and I both know that you can do differently to perform way better than or even perform at all. There’s a lot of these traditional firms that are just totally failing. So let’s first talk about the broken part. What were some of those barriers and issues and challenges that especially women faced?

Davina Frederick (04:21.784)
Right.

Davina Frederick (04:37.167)
So it’s interesting because I was telling you before I worked in a law firm and anybody who knows my story knows is I worked in a law firm before I became a lawyer. was their marketing manager of the law firm and I ran the marketing department which consisted of me basically. When I left, they put three people in my position. So that was one thing that was different, right? And also you were basically a lawyer or a secretary. They couldn’t really put you in any other…

Karin Conroy (04:48.539)
I love this.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (04:56.402)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (05:05.838)
categories, largely men, largely white men. I grew up in the South. I was working for an old Southern, venerable, traditional law firm. And they were very proud of their culture and everything. And they had women partners then who were kind of coming up. Their diversity was to add white women, right, to be partners. And that was the first step. But what was interesting in the 80s and the 90s is in

Karin Conroy (05:27.514)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (05:35.631)
in careers is that women had to adopt male behaviors. So we dressed in the suits with the shoulder pads out to here, which I loved by the way, because I have very narrow shoulders. So that was fantastic. the bigger, know, like we had to project power and we had to, if we wanted a seat at the table, you know, we had to learn golf.

Karin Conroy (05:42.105)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (05:47.75)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (05:52.274)
Yeah

Karin Conroy (05:56.55)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (06:04.106)
And we had to learn how to network in sports, know, be able to talk about sports. We had to be able to adopt these male behaviors to be able to be seen as an equal, right? And that often meant making choices about whether or not to be a parent, to be a mother. I, for one, am not a mother. And part of the reason why is because

Karin Conroy (06:04.175)
gross.

Karin Conroy (06:14.267)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:18.64)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:23.962)
Yes, yeah.

Davina Frederick (06:30.446)
my career was very important to me and I didn’t see how I could do that and have children and do that both well. And I know there are a lot of women who did and who have, but I also just don’t have the stamina for that around the clock kind of thing of mothering and performing at that sort of level that men who have wives who do those things. And that was really still very common in the 80s and 90s.

Karin Conroy (06:57.85)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was gonna say I tell this story often, but I don’t tell it usually ever on the podcast. But when I was finishing my MBA, I sat down with my professor and in my class, I’m in Southern California, it’s relatively diverse. Like it was considered diverse, but there was probably a handful of women in my class versus, you it was probably at least 80 % men. And so I sat down and I’m…

at the time in my 30s. And I sat down with my professor, we’re these exit interviews about like, what are you doing next? What’s your plans for your life and all of that stuff. And I said, well, I’m thinking about getting a PhD, but I also wanna have kids. And he stopped in his tracks and he said, I have never had this conversation before. And I said, why not? Are you kidding me? This was not in 1963. This was not that long ago.

Davina Frederick (07:46.924)
Really?

Davina Frederick (07:52.758)
Right exactly.

Karin Conroy (07:54.806)
And I said, are you kidding me? Then you are missing something because I know there’s not a lot of women in this program, but there are some and we’re all in the same age. And so, and he was like just mind blown that that would be some factor in how you plan your career going forward because it’s not for men. So let’s just kind of, for the most part, obviously I don’t want to totally blanket statement for the most part.

When men are planning out their education and their career and their path, they don’t have to account for children and how that might impact change and affect their schedule, their availability, and just like their entire timeline. Yeah, yeah.

Davina Frederick (08:38.393)
Right, right. And I think that comes from, know, women, women are the birth givers, right? And so there is, regardless of what happens, there’s going to be nine months of that happening to your body, plus the birth of a child. And, and you’re going to be the one that that child needs and wants, especially if you’re breastfeeding and that kind of thing, you know. And so there is just a,

Karin Conroy (08:51.675)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (09:03.762)
biological component that it’s going to affect your life that it doesn’t happen to men. That doesn’t mean that in this day and age we aren’t seeing more men involved with parenting at earlier ages and things like that. But it used to be that men never thought of that. They thought of it only in terms of I’m going to have to support more people, right? Right.

Karin Conroy (09:16.785)
Right.

Karin Conroy (09:21.264)
Right, exactly. I have more mouths to feed. They always said that, like I have more mouths to feed and so basically I need to make more money. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (09:27.82)
Right, right. And I think this conversation is interesting because I work with so many millennial women. I’m a Gen Xer. I work with so many millennial women and Gen Z women coming up and at a lot kind of don’t really understand that framework, you know, because they can’t, it’s so foreign. Like they’ve been brought up by power mothers, super mothers who were out there.

Karin Conroy (09:46.791)
right?

Karin Conroy (09:52.475)
Right.

Davina Frederick (09:53.807)
you know, working and raising kids. Going through law school, I was just amazed. My roommate, when I took the bar, she got really sick, took the bar and passed it with flying colors. She got really sick, the nine of the bar exam. But she gave birth to like four children and two. She started law school pregnant and ended it pregnant. Like she gave birth and then had it. And I was just like, you’re a superwoman, you’re amazing. And she was also a Jag. I mean, she became

Karin Conroy (10:13.608)
my gosh.

Karin Conroy (10:17.796)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

my gosh.

Davina Frederick (10:23.534)
Yeah, she was in the military and she became a military attorney. And so just an incredible person. And I think how hard that is. And I think we give credit to women and how hard it is to have all of this change going on in your biologically in your body and then giving Berto a whole other human. First, we made a whole other human. Then we give Berto a whole other human. And then

Karin Conroy (10:33.937)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (10:45.21)
Right. Well, and not to mention just the schedule. mean, once you have a kid, know, that first, until they go to kindergarten, the scheduling requirements, whether you have put them in daycare or whatever choices you make, there are scheduling requirements there that add a whole other layer of complexity to your life. Whether you’re at home, whether you have a nanny, whether you’re working from, whatever it is, it’s just, it complicates things. yeah.

Davina Frederick (11:12.59)
And I want to make sure, before we move on from this, I want to make sure that we don’t leave out women who don’t have children because it is still a different experience because as I said, I was one who didn’t have children and I worked for a succession of male-owned businesses, law engineering firm and law firm and ad agency. And one of the things that was very interesting is that I was treated differently by male clients.

Karin Conroy (11:18.222)
Yes, 100%.

Davina Frederick (11:42.223)
So I was supposed to be sort of networking and bringing in business and things like that. My boss wanted me to do that, hired me for a different position, but then thought I would do that. But what happened is the male clients wanted to date me. They wanted to hang out. Like it’s a whole different thing. You know, what you think you’re being friendly and warm and you know, like having a relationship that’s professional. And then they’re looking at you going, you’re single. You must be hubba hubba. And I’m just like,

Karin Conroy (11:55.29)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (12:03.547)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (12:08.402)
Hi, yeah, right.

Davina Frederick (12:11.694)
So it’s not just about being a mother is my point is like there are a lot of challenges that women face because of the male female dynamics. And I think a lot of men are really pissed off because of after the whole me too movement. It’s like, I’m having to deal with all these challenges in the workplace. And you’re like, well, welcome to the club, buddy. We’ve been navigating these touchy subjects like the whole time.

Karin Conroy (12:29.37)
Yeah, and it’s like, welcome. Yeah, exactly. We’ve been here forever. Yeah, but quietly inside our heads. I think that’s a good transition because what I was going to ask next is I feel like COVID, especially for law firms and the legal industry, was a big turning point because the legal industry, in my experience, has been kind of slow to change. And without something like COVID, it would have taken forever.

Like the change and there’s the ability to have Zoom meetings, to recognize the importance of technology, working from home, all of these things that became normal during COVID probably would have taken the legal industry in my, you know, just rough estimate many more years than it did otherwise. So let’s talk about kind of how that kind of played into women’s roles and then how they…

Davina Frederick (13:16.748)
Yeah, exactly.

Karin Conroy (13:26.63)
set up their firms differently because of all of that, because now that all seems more normal.

Davina Frederick (13:33.101)
Yeah, I mean, and I think there are multiple factors. So I think COVID is definitely part of it that hastened where we were heading. And because I remember with law firms, it used to be a very big deal. You’d have a when they started teleconferencing and it was like you had to buy all this expensive equipment and there was a big conference room and the partners would be teleconferencing with somebody. It was a very special thing. And then an expensive. No, exactly. was like a whole and it never worked right.

Karin Conroy (13:46.864)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (13:55.504)
Yeah, and expensive. Like they never did the cheap option. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (14:01.612)
And I know this because my husband, is now my husband, worked for lawyers and law firms for years handling their technology. So I remember that, right? But… Exactly, exactly. So this is, I think COVID definitely changed the world. mean, no doubt it changed the world and it changed the way we work because we had to think more creatively about how we work.

Karin Conroy (14:10.815)
yeah. Yeah. And they’re all like fumbling around desperate like where’s your husband? We need him now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (14:30.987)
And thank goodness the technology tools were there. And I think it also spawned a lot of technology. And I’ll give you an example. I started my virtual firm. So I had a regular law firm that I was growing in a traditional manner. And it just wasn’t working for me. And I wound up walking away from it. It wasn’t working for me because I gained like 30 pounds because I was working all the time. And all I wanted to do was eat and drink. like, hated my life, right? So.

Karin Conroy (14:34.129)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:38.211)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (14:57.263)
Yeah, yeah.

Davina Frederick (14:58.591)
I left and after some time I started a virtual firm. And back then in 2011, the virtual firm was email and a phone, right? Now, now all of these, in fact, I just joined a group because I wanted to learn about some new technology. All of these firms have all sorts of wonderful intake softwares and AI is coming into play now in a lot of our case management and intake processes and

Karin Conroy (15:07.322)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (15:19.76)
Yup.

Davina Frederick (15:27.296)
And so I think it really spawned innovation in technology as well when people started saying, well, hey, it’s kind of cool that we can work on a more flexible way, right?

Karin Conroy (15:37.434)
Right. And it’s fine. you know, the work still happens and we’re able to get these things done and we’re able to move things forward. It’s not completely, we don’t have to shut everything down if we can’t meet in a conference room. It’s fine. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (15:54.521)
Right. And I think women have really been leaders in that arena because we are so desperate as a whole, as a general statement for this flexibility. Like, how do I manage it all? And I need this flexibility. And so we just fell in love with this idea of, great, I don’t have to put on this suit and all this makeup and these shoes and do my hair and fix the kids and get them off to daycare.

Karin Conroy (16:08.977)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (16:24.438)
arrange for some childcare at home and I can come out of this meeting, then I can sit in my office and knock out some work without having to, you know, put on this whole persona to go out into the world, right? And I see that I, yeah, exactly. And I see that in what I do, I work with women who are starting and building their own law firms. And some of them are 10 years in the journey, 15, some of them are

Karin Conroy (16:34.512)
Right. Yeah, exactly. And drive and commute and all of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (16:48.175)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (16:53.123)
just starting out. it just depends on where they are. But I am so proud of the this generation of women and the way that they are embracing technology. And also it’s one of the biggest challenges that they’re dealing with is, well, I have employees and I have female employees who have different needs than male employees. And how do I handle that?

Karin Conroy (17:21.871)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (17:22.05)
So they’re having to really wrestle with what it is like to be the boss and the owner of the company. And, I’ve got two employees out on maternity leave and how does that impact my business and my bottom line? And then to see how they are handling that, that’s really something that can be a model for the more traditional law firms in the world is take a look at how some of these young, innovating women are handling this workplace environment.

Karin Conroy (17:33.67)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (17:52.202)
in a more egalitarian sort of way. Like how do we make that work?

Karin Conroy (17:57.254)
Well, that was exactly my next question. feel like we’re kind of in this zone where you’re reading my mind from one question to the next, but is kind of what can these traditional firms like, let’s talk for a minute about some examples of how it’s not working, how they’re marketing. And I can throw some examples in too about things that I see all the time that are outdated. And in comparison, what some of the women you’re coaching are doing

to, so you mentioned kind of how they’re addressing maternity leave, but in broader scale things like what are they doing that’s different and unique that these traditional firms could learn from them?

Davina Frederick (18:40.207)
Yeah, so I think we want to talk about marketing because this is a marketing podcast and feverless. Let’s give some marketing conversation here because there’s obviously a lot of policies and things like that. But but one of the things that I think and I know and I don’t know that it’s I think there’s women and I think women sort of dominate in this. But there are men doing this as well. So I don’t want to just say there aren’t young men who are doing this. I think it’s a lot of younger people like newer generations with new ideas.

Karin Conroy (18:44.112)
Yeah. Yeah.

million things. Sure.

Davina Frederick (19:07.726)
But one of the things is, I don’t know if you’re familiar with single mom attorney. Single mom attorney, oh, you need to check her out. She’s fabulous, Gianni Avalos. But let me use her as an example. She’s a client of mine. And Gianni went through law school as she was pregnant and she graduated from law school, had a baby, she had the baby before she graduated. And there’s a video of her getting her results from law school, holding her infant. And.

Karin Conroy (19:12.74)
No!

Karin Conroy (19:34.619)
Davina Frederick (19:35.713)
It was just a really powerful thing. And she started recording her life as a single mom attorney and putting it out because she was seeking community from other women who understood that single mom pressure of taking care of a child and building a career at the same time that was meaningful, would provide for her child and all of that. And in the midst of sort of building this community for herself,

It evolved into really a powerful marketing machine for her law firm. 98 % of her clients and her phone rings off the hook are the result of her social media presence on Instagram and TikTok. And it is amazing. She’s a family law attorney. And so she’s attracting women who are

Karin Conroy (20:08.473)
Nice. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (20:18.938)
Amazing. What kind of what kind of lot does she practice? Perfect. There you go.

Davina Frederick (20:29.12)
and maybe they’re married, maybe they’re not, maybe they’re not, and they’ve got children and they need child support and they need some parenting plan arrangements and things. And she’s also attracting women who are like, I’m going to go through this divorce and I need that. And she gets me, she gets me. And I think that is the huge thing about social media is that we’re seeing more younger people and a lot of them being women, most of them being women that I see, because you know, my algorithm

Karin Conroy (20:41.298)
but I know you can relate. Yes, yes.

Davina Frederick (20:58.551)
is what they feed me that. But they’re putting themselves out there and showing this is who I am as a person and this is what it is in my day to day life. And they’re connecting with people on an authentic level. This is who I am. And the people are resonating going, that’s who I aspire to be, or that’s who I am, or that’s whatever. And so they’re connecting in a way, whereas in traditional law firms, you would have more of a

Karin Conroy (20:58.65)
Yeah, right.

Davina Frederick (21:26.574)
methodical kind of we go to, I remember at the law firm that I used to work for, a lot of our marketing strategy was philanthropic dinners. You know, we’d get up and get dressed up and go to galas and we’d buy tables and we’d invite clients and, we did a lot of golfing. There was a lot of attorneys who did a lot of golfing. And so it’s very different.

Karin Conroy (21:35.941)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (21:44.56)
Yeah. And it’s just like showing your money. It’s like we are successful because we’re here in this expensive golf course or we’re at this expensive philanthropic dinner or whatever. And so you should respect us. And now that is kind of the old school way that you would earn kind of respect and expertise is by showing that you had made a bunch of money. And now I think that’s just not how people see it anymore.

And they don’t really care if you’ve made money, they care that you care about them. And so the messaging is totally different. And I have a client that I’m working with right now that I have been working with for more than 10 years. And we had a meeting and I said, you know, that work that we did 10 plus years ago, everything is different. Like if we pulled all of, if I pulled all those files out, we wouldn’t use any of that. And so I think that’s one place where a lot of traditional firms are

really making mistakes is they’re still doing the same stuff they did 10 years ago and they think that’s going to work.

Davina Frederick (22:46.543)
Well, and here’s the thing, and they think it’s going to work. like those, it was like in the 2000s when we instantly knew what a 90s website looked like, right? Because people took so long to like redo their website. Well, I think too is there’s this personal one-on-one authenticity, right? So even if, even if I have a team of people working for me, I’m still the face of my wealthy woman lawyer brand at this moment. Now I teach a lot of my,

Karin Conroy (22:54.449)
Exactly. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (23:02.502)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (23:10.726)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (23:13.486)
law firm clients how to expand that brand beyond themselves to include their team as they grow their team, right? But there’s still got to be that one-on-one people are looking for that one-on-one connection. This is somebody who gets me as opposed to I’m going to go to someone’s office who is superior to me in their like old school attorneys are like I’m the knowledge holder and I’m the one and you’re going to do what I tell you to do and

Karin Conroy (23:17.252)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (23:26.672)
Yeah. Yes.

Karin Conroy (23:33.808)
Right, right.

Karin Conroy (23:42.278)
Right.

Davina Frederick (23:43.405)
Whereas, you know, attorneys today are like, you know, I have this knowledge and I’m a problem solver and we’re going to solve this problem for you, but they’re not talking down to people, right? They’re not put up like it’s kind of that white coat syndrome with doctors. We don’t look at doctors the way we used to because now we know that doctors do not study nutrition at all in medical school that they’re so we start to question. Do they even know if the first thing they’re doing is not even

Karin Conroy (23:54.149)
Right.

Davina Frederick (24:10.414)
They’re not even educated on menopause or they’re not educated on on food or they’re not educated on we start to question these generations question Doctors, where is my parents generation? They’re the silent generation They’re the doctors on the pedestal and that’s the way attorneys were looked at in the same way. So I think that’s changed

Karin Conroy (24:13.208)
Yes. Right.

Karin Conroy (24:26.404)
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and while you were saying that, was thinking, we do have this whole conversation around doctors about whether they have a good bedside manner. And that, don’t think there’s an equivalent phrase for lawyers. and like in my mind, it’s like, do you understand my problem?

Davina Frederick (24:43.032)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:48.946)
And are you conveying that you understand my problem or are you still in 1994 and you’re putting up dollar signs all over your website and you’re saying, are X law firm in Y city and we do Z kind of law? And it’s like, that is not messaging. That is like…

Davina Frederick (25:06.466)
Well, what bothers me so much about the old fashioned sort of like law firms are this, this it’s all about the lawyers credentials. Like we have to have that I was on this board and I have this and I graduated at this point in my class and blah, blah, blah. And I still think there’s place for those types of law firms. If you’re looking at maybe the really ones who are working with, you know, the Warren Buffets of the world, maybe that is something right.

Karin Conroy (25:16.443)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:24.016)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:34.298)
Yeah. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (25:35.865)
But I think what we’re seeing that I really think is a beautiful thing is we’re seeing that everybody can find an attorney that they can relate to, right? And so if you can’t relate to this guy, this old guy sitting in his office, you may be able to rate to this person, right? Because there’s more representation happening. We’re starting to see more

Karin Conroy (25:49.158)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (25:58.032)
Yes, yes.

Karin Conroy (26:03.452)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (26:05.4)
people of color coming up and creating their own law firms and saying, I’m the boss. And what I always say to people is that if two bros can graduate from law school and start a law firm business and grow it to the point where it’s a national or international firm a decade from now, two decades from now, right? So you open any mid to large law firm and you’re gonna see a lot of white male faces with some white females now that have kind of worked up.

And that’s who you’re going to see is like the leadership of the firm. If they can do it, why aren’t the rest of us doing it? Because now we have access to the internet, social media. These really level the playing fields because it allows us to reach people directly at a relatively low cost investment.

Karin Conroy (26:47.046)
Yep. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (26:56.422)
Well, and I wanted to come back to, because I think that emotional level of connection is something that is typically more feminine. And so when you’re talking about that, the bio, the example that you were giving where it’s just like a list of all their representative cases, and I’ve seen a bajillion of these, I know you have to. And then it’s like, I went to law school here and I did, and it’s like,

Davina Frederick (27:19.885)
Yeah. I know you have.

Karin Conroy (27:25.926)
you it makes me want to vomit. But as opposed to how a female would typically present herself, unless of course she’s handed the male template. But the approach for more women is going to be to connect emotionally. And that’s not something that’s as easy for men. So how would you or how do you kind of coach your clients through that messaging and how to

Let’s just say in the example of a bio page, how would they change their bio so that it is kind of connecting more emotionally?

Davina Frederick (28:02.944)
I people are telling is telling stories is the way right telling your story and and and also you know your bio is not really about you it’s really about your audience your target market the people that you’re trying to attract to work with you so how is it that you why should they hire you what what about you

Karin Conroy (28:07.974)
Yes. Yep.

Karin Conroy (28:13.862)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (28:29.142)
makes somebody that they want to work with and hire. So I’ll give you an example of my bio that gets used a lot. have, I kind of, used to have an about me page and I recently changed my website where it’s like one page and I’ve got everything on it. SEO may not be great, but it’s a great website because I, did research and we were looking at our clients websites and at our website and we were seeing that people, we would sit there and watch where people were doing and they were on the homepage and they would go to the about.

page. And so my about is just, it’s just my journey is probably a lot like yours. I did this, this happened to me, and here I am today, right? And that kind of approach is, I get a lot of people who resonate with that because they go,

Karin Conroy (28:58.566)
Yep. Yep.

Karin Conroy (29:07.179)
Yes!

Karin Conroy (29:13.679)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (29:20.294)
That is so well done because first of all, I just want to repeat it because when it’s short, it usually means there was way more work that went into making it short. It’s the long bios that are the quick, easy ones. So my journey is probably a lot like yours. I mean, some variation of this is basically what every firm needs to say.

Davina Frederick (29:32.644)
Right.

Davina Frederick (29:42.915)
Yeah.

Right.

Karin Conroy (29:45.318)
And it’s not your journey necessarily, but it’s like your expertise and the kind of work you’ve done and my, you know, my knowledge and what I bring to the table resonates with people like you because of XYZ. I’ve done this and I, but I first understand why you’re here and I know how to help, you know, like that is, it seems so simple. And that’s why I’m kind of focusing on it extra for a moment because

Davina Frederick (30:07.128)
Fright.

Karin Conroy (30:15.187)
So many people get it wrong. like go back to your website and you probably think it says something like that, but it doesn’t.

Davina Frederick (30:17.976)
Right.

Davina Frederick (30:22.158)
It doesn’t. doesn’t. Well, and truthfully, nobody wants to read your resume. You’re not looking to get hired at a law firm where they’re looking at your resume. People need to know enough to know that, you know, I have a law license and nobody comes in and asks you your GPA. As a matter of fact, had my cousin, my cousin’s a lawyer and he told me years ago, he said, Divina, in all the years I’ve been practicing,

Karin Conroy (30:26.598)
No.

Karin Conroy (30:41.615)
Right?

Davina Frederick (30:47.917)
Not one person has ever come in and asked me where I went to law school or what my GPA is. And that would shock a lot of sort of blue blood lawyers and law firms where that has such meaning to them. That has such meaning to them. And it’s like, but there’s a whole market out there that is happy to pay lawyers to help them solve problems. They don’t care as long as when they talk to you that they feel confident.

Karin Conroy (30:52.208)
Yeah, no.

Yes. And law students. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Move on.

Davina Frederick (31:14.38)
that you get them, you get the problem and you can help solve the problem, right? It’s a different thing.

Karin Conroy (31:19.332)
Yes, yes, yeah. Okay, so let’s get to your, this is like your little corner of the world, building these wealth generating law firms. So what are some marketing tips that like just out of the box, like let’s say it’s someone who is not necessarily a brand new lawyer, but who’s been doing this for a while and things aren’t going so well. So they’re coming to you for help and you’re looking at what they’ve got going on and what are the first like,

couple things that you see over and over and over that are like, we’ve got to address this right away.

Davina Frederick (31:52.345)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think first, number one is if you hate it, you won’t do it. And I sort of give people permission to not do things that they don’t enjoy at all. so I’m a person I, I love to speak. have a podcast. I go on podcasts. That’s great. I don’t like the hassle of getting traveling to a conference and speaking at a conference and all that. So I don’t

Karin Conroy (32:00.75)
Yes!

Karin Conroy (32:05.372)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (32:20.162)
go in that direction. get invited to do things. I don’t like doing CLEs because I don’t like the hassle of jumping through hoops to meet some bar associations demands for what I need to do for CLE. But I have a thriving business because I focus on something I really love to do, which has conversations with smart people who love talking about what I love talking about and looking for those places that I can reach people in mass.

online because I love working from home. love spending time with my husband and my dog. I’m not somebody, I can speak, I have done it before, but it just doesn’t thrill me. So first thing I say to people, yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:01.806)
I am so on same page with this. And, and I think that it, it, it kind of shows up when you’re doing, you know, cause I do the same thing and I’ve, you know, I have done it over and over and every time I do it, I’m like, what am I doing to myself? I hate this. Yeah. Yeah. gosh. The slides. Yeah. All of it. And I’m like, no, and then I’ll re you know, that’ll be fresh for a certain amount of time. And then a certain amount of time passes and I think, maybe. And then I learn it again.

Davina Frederick (33:16.802)
Why am I doing this? Why did I do this? I had to do these slides. I had to do this.

Davina Frederick (33:30.754)
Well, it’s one of the things I will say that I think happens with women is that we are so happy to be asked. I’m so happy somebody asked me and then we feel obligated to do it because we think to ourselves, well, they asked me. It’s a great opportunity. I’m going to instead of asking, is it something that really brings me joy? And can I get my clients by doing something else that I really like to do? So that’s number one.

Karin Conroy (33:34.395)
Yes.

Yeah, it’s… yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:47.131)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:51.42)
Right?

Karin Conroy (33:55.41)
Well, that’s the other side of it. Like, does it even matter to your bottom line? You know, or are you doing this out of some sense of obligation? Because I’ve done that too. I’ve shown up at places and I’m like, none of the people in this audience are my clients. And so this is a complete waste of time. So you really need to kind of be, you know, ask yourself in a very kind of harsh way, like, really, does this matter? Am I gonna get, are there any clients of mine there? Yeah.

Davina Frederick (34:00.043)
bright.

Davina Frederick (34:11.63)
Exactly.

Davina Frederick (34:20.984)
Yeah, is this even gonna get, yeah, exactly. And asking yourself, I mean, and I think that’s the thing too, is we often get sucked into doing things because somebody tells us exposure, you know, we’re gonna get exposure. And it’s like, don’t, you know, I’m a highly qualified person who’s done many things. I don’t need any more, like I need exposure to my audience in the way that I wanna show up for my audience. So that’s the first thing I would say to people. And then the other piece of advice I have for people is,

Karin Conroy (34:30.576)
Yeah, right!

Karin Conroy (34:42.96)
Right. Exactly.

Davina Frederick (34:50.381)
Do you have more time or more money? Because if you have more time, then you might do a lot of organic things if you don’t yet have the cash flow to be able to pay for advertising and stuff like that. And if you have more money, then you might start doing things like investing in online advertising. mean, every lawyer eventually needs to find that Google sweet spot because Google is what Yellow Pages used to be, right? Everybody goes, even if they hear about you, they go to Google and look you up.

Karin Conroy (34:57.563)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (35:02.385)
Right.

Karin Conroy (35:08.336)
Yep, team members. Yeah. Yep.

Davina Frederick (35:20.152)
For my business, I do a lot of Facebook and Instagram because there’s an education piece. People aren’t sitting around thinking, I need a coach. Like they sit around and think, I just hit somebody with my car. I need an attorney, right? They’re not thinking the same. So, but Google is definitely where lawyers need to be to begin with. If they have, if now they’re like, I don’t have any more time for networking and luncheons or speaking engagements or podcast interviews or whatever it is, let me go put some money.

Karin Conroy (35:32.185)
Right, right.

Davina Frederick (35:47.663)
behind this and hire somebody to help me with my online presence so that that can be doing work for me 24 seven while I’m off living my life and my team is being a lawyer, right? Exactly. So those are a couple of pieces of advice I give people right out of the gate.

Karin Conroy (35:51.964)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (35:57.18)
being a lawyer or being a lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. So I

think those are really, really good to just get your thoughts around things that you might not be doing correctly or rethinking some of the ideas. But we’ve mentioned a bunch of times your podcast now. So I also want to spend a minute talking about podcasting because I really feel like it’s one of the most underrated marketing strategies, especially for law firms.

And people are overwhelmed by the idea, so they just kind of push it over to the side like, ugh, that’s sort of scary. So let’s, yeah. I’ve never known a lawyer that doesn’t know how to talk.

Davina Frederick (36:36.365)
I wouldn’t know what to talk about. wouldn’t know who to talk to. wouldn’t know, you know, and it’s all of this is all of this is I don’t like the sound of my voice. I don’t like to see myself on video. And I will say as as a woman who is like on the verge of 60, I’m like this close to it. I and having gone through all this in my 40s and 50s, I don’t love to see myself on camera. I mean, it’s not my it’s not my dream.

Karin Conroy (36:46.746)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (37:01.394)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (37:04.064)
And of course, listening to your voice, everybody, when you first start recording, you listen to your voice and go, that’s not really what I sound like. Yeah. And so, but I think once you, the key to that is once you get in, if you focus on the other person and the conversation and the people who may be listening and what they’re going to get out of it. So you’re focused on the giving aspect of it. You begin to rise above your own inhibitions about it. And of course, just like anything else, the more you do it, the more you’re like,

Karin Conroy (37:08.37)
You’re like, ew. Yeah, right, yeah.

Karin Conroy (37:19.217)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (37:32.166)
Yeah. Comfortable. And you look and sound better too, when you’re more comfortable with it. But it’s kind of like saying, I don’t want to start a law firm because I’m afraid that when I pick up the phone, I’m going to sound weird on the phone. Like everybody, feel like when you are fresh out of college or law school or whatever, they have these kind of like, what am I going to say? Moments. But you push through that. Like you don’t let that stop you from starting your law firm. And so in the same way for the podcast, yeah, I look back, there’s of course the whole growth of every

Davina Frederick (37:33.358)
comfortable doing it, right?

Davina Frederick (37:52.59)
safe.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:02.108)
platform, whether it’s social media or whatever, there’s cringy moments and there’s going to be things that you say where you’re like, yeah.

Davina Frederick (38:06.402)
Yeah, there’s definitely stuff that if I go back, if I went back and listen to it, I’d probably be like, Davidia, why’d you say that? But I will say, but I will say there’s a couple of tricks for people who are thinking about podcasting. One is that I don’t really go back. I produce so much content that I don’t really have time to go back and listen. Occasionally I have listened to a podcast of mine and I usually I go, that was really good. That was a really good conversation, right?

Karin Conroy (38:12.262)
Take it down. Yeah, take it down. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:19.153)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (38:32.016)
Yeah. Yes.

Davina Frederick (38:34.425)
So because there’s another person there, now I do individual podcasts as well, right? But I think there’s a, think for me, I just keep moving forward. I keep putting stuff out there. And what I do is, and this is kind of woo woo, is I always sort of say to myself, I kind of ask the universe to let whoever needs to hear this message, hear this message, right? So it’s just, about, it reframes my mind in terms of my audience saying,

Karin Conroy (38:44.848)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:55.481)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (39:01.74)
you whoever needs to hear this, let them hear this, right? And, and then they show up on my sales calls, you know, and they say, I’ve been listening to your podcast for, you know, and I love it. And it just grew. So thank you so much for the podcast. It’s helped me so much. And that is rewarding.

Karin Conroy (39:08.092)
Yes?

Karin Conroy (39:15.846)
Yep. It is for sure the best way I have found to do what the phrase I hate using, but I have to use is thought leadership. And every attorney who is building their firm, not every, but the majority of them, they will in their initial calls with me, they will use this phrase. I want to be a thought leader and blah, blah. And if that is at…

all on your radar or maybe even five years down the road, which if it is, this is a great time to start a podcast because you want time to build it and do it and go through those cringey moments. But it absolutely is the best way to create your expertise. Yeah, absolutely. And I get those same calls and I know when they say that they’ve listened to my podcast, I know this is a good one because they are selling themselves on me where it’s like,

Davina Frederick (39:54.55)
it’s a credibility. Yeah, you’re the authority.

Karin Conroy (40:07.46)
while I’m sleeping or doing whatever, they are listening or watching my podcast episodes and I’m doing my own sales for them through that. Also, the other little kind of technical tactic is if you’re doing a podcast, you should absolutely take advantage of every part of the content. So be doing video as much as you, that’s also feeling like uncomfortable. Yep.

Davina Frederick (40:28.994)
Yeah, my first year I didn’t do video because the people I hired that encouraged me to start a podcast didn’t do they said no, these podcast listeners like audio they don’t want video and I thought and then when I let them go I was like, you know, this is wasted value. I could be using this content every because video is huge now and I could be using it everywhere else. I’ll say that to your point about authority figure. I’m going to give you I’m going to tell a story give you an example real quick. I have a client.

Karin Conroy (40:47.994)
It’s huge. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (40:53.756)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (40:55.917)
Holly Draper and she is the founder of Draper Law Firm. And one of the things when we first started working together, we were looking, she says, I’ve hired all these lawyers because we had this Supreme Court case and now that case is over. I need to keep these lawyers busy. So I need to up my marketing game. And one of the tactics that we used was to start a podcast. And she had to really think about, well, what am I going to talk about? What are we going to do?

And her podcast is Texas Family Law Insiders. And it’s an excellent podcast if you’re a family lawyer in Texas. And I told her, said, know, there’s different ways you get value. One is you get value from your audience, which we all know. But you also get value in the people you have on as guests. And if you will, those connections that you make, you and I are an example of that. The connection that we make getting to know each other.

Karin Conroy (41:37.417)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (41:46.99)
and having this thing in common and having this great conversation. And you’ve been on my podcast, I’ve been on your podcast, and we’re top of mind with each other, right? And those connections mean a lot. And I think that gives you an excuse to call people up and say, hey, would you like to be on my podcast? Because otherwise you’d be calling them up, asking them for coffee, and they’d be like, I don’t really drink coffee. I don’t have time for coffee.

Karin Conroy (41:53.116)
Yes.

Yep. Yep.

Karin Conroy (42:05.712)
Yep. Yes.

Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right.

Davina Frederick (42:14.05)
But everybody’s got time to be on your podcast because it promotes their business as well or whatever it is they’re doing. Right.

Karin Conroy (42:18.404)
It’s mutual value. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. the last little tactic I was going to add in terms of podcasting is when you do all those different platforms. So I use a platform called Riverside and I do not get, ad money or whatever for promoting them. just think they’re amazing because, they record the video and then I can pull out social media and whatever for all of those pieces. Then I then also use those clips, for Tik TOK for reels, all that.

and for ads and video ads perform a bajillion times more successfully than still ads and video ads where we’re talking about some really awesome thing and I have a clip from a guest and like it’s so much better than me like talking you know showing my website and we’re talking and like having a sales page about email marketing or something you know some like you know totally advertising looking thing so I will just say like

there’s all these levels of things you can do with your podcast that people, lot of people don’t think about. So yeah, awesome. Okay, any like quick last minute tips from your podcast from either the guest or kind of things you’ve learned over the life of your podcast, because you’re in year five now, right? my gosh, that’s amazing.

Davina Frederick (43:22.914)
Right, absolutely.

Davina Frederick (43:37.049)
Year five, I know, I think we’re, well, let’s see, we started in 2019. So whatever that adds up to, yeah. So it’s six year, yeah, six year. So it’s very exciting. I will say this, one tip I have is that it takes time, right? So you’re building a body of work. And I think a lot of us don’t think about that in our careers, right? The value of a body of work, I’ve written two books. That’s part of my body of work. I have.

Karin Conroy (43:41.624)
we’re going into year six then? Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:52.696)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (43:58.416)
Yeah. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (44:05.336)
going in my six year of my podcast, that’s part of my body of work. I’ve produced a lot of webinars and trainings and eBooks and things. That’s part of my body of work. So looking at it, when you start to look at it that way and say, I’m building a body of work that goes out into the world and establishes my brand and attracts like-minded people who are wanting what it is that I’m doing. They want to come over here and play with me. That’s the power of any sort of content-driven marketing.

Karin Conroy (44:08.261)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (44:29.329)
Yes.

Davina Frederick (44:34.607)
And I think video is really where it’s at. Like a lot of people love podcasts and audio, but video is everywhere. people will come and they will meet me and they will say, I have your voice in my head. I heard you telling me, right? And you’re like, whoa, I don’t even know you. But.

Karin Conroy (44:38.053)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (44:42.759)
the future.

Karin Conroy (44:51.728)
How weird! Yes!

Davina Frederick (45:00.3)
That’s powerful. mean, you can’t get better, more powerful marketing than that for somebody who they already feel like I’m their coach. Now it’s a matter of whether not they want to take it to the next level, you know, right?

Karin Conroy (45:04.506)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (45:07.971)
Yes!

Pay, yeah, right, exactly, amazing. I think that’s so, that is it. That’s exactly what my experience with podcasting has been too, but.

Davina Frederick (45:19.662)
Yeah, and you want them to feel like you’re already their attorney. You’re their lawyer when they need you that you’re the one that’s going to call, right?

Karin Conroy (45:22.372)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, they’ve already got it filed away in the back of their mind and you’re top of mind and it’s there. But I just want to underline the idea of patience because I say that all the time, this is the thing that nobody wants to hear, but it is the most, one of the most important things when it comes to marketing is patience. And the other one is consistency. But patience is the thing that people have the biggest challenge with. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (45:50.113)
I will tell you, I’m gonna address the consistency, because I just this week had a sales call with somebody and she said to me, I’ve been listening to your podcast and she goes, I just thank you so much for it, I appreciate it. And she says, and I love that you’re consistent, because a lot of people are not. And I was like, if she only knew like some weeks, I’m going, mine’s weekly and it has been the whole time. And I have methods for sort of how I do weeks when I.

Karin Conroy (46:03.916)
Yes. Yeah.

I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (46:16.524)
when I’m just like gone and I just can’t prepare ahead of time or whatever. have things that I do. But it’s and you think to yourself, nobody’s going to notice if I don’t put out a podcast episode this week. Nobody’s going to notice that. And there are maybe a lot of people who don’t notice, but you’re loyal fans. They will notice. They notice.

Karin Conroy (46:26.554)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

They notice. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So it’s time for a quick book review. Davina, what is the book that you’re going to add to our library today?

Davina Frederick (46:37.656)
Hahaha!

Davina Frederick (46:42.723)
This is like a game show quiz or something. So I want to tell you Who Not How by Dan Sullivan and his co-author, Benjamin Hardy. the reason, so this is a book that it’s not something I’m currently reading. It is something I’ve read in the past that is a life changer, right? There are a lot of business books out there that are interesting and you learn things in the moment and then you forget about them. Who Not How, I didn’t even read the whole book.

Karin Conroy (46:45.202)
You

Karin Conroy (46:50.226)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (47:00.242)
It’s a classic.

Davina Frederick (47:11.094)
And it changed my life, right? That, I mean, that’s powerful, right? And part of it is he actually showcases what he means by who, not how, because he has an author who writes the book for him. Dan Sullivan is the author. Benjamin Hardy is the one who actually wrote the book, right? they’re co-writer. He’s doing the work and Dan Sullivan’s just showed up being Dan Sullivan. So, but the reason it resonates for me and the reason I would love for

Karin Conroy (47:12.529)
Yes.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (47:28.274)
He’s like the ghostwriter who is actually like doing all the work in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (47:41.167)
particularly women lawyers to listen to, but men as well, is because I find that high achieving women, one of our biggest problems is, is that we became high achieving based on our own hard work. So we went to college, we went to get good grades in school, we got the gold stars, we went to college, we went to law school, we took the exam, all these things. And all of that was based on our hard work. We started our own law firm out of our own hard work. But if you want to scale,

Karin Conroy (47:54.406)
Yeah.

Davina Frederick (48:09.848)
to be a million dollar, multimillion dollar, eight figure law firm, you have got to learn how to ask yourself who, not how. So not how do I do this thing that I want to? How do I start a podcast? Karen has inspired me to start a podcast today, so I’m going to start a podcast. How do I do that? No, you want to ask who is it that already has this knowledge that can help me start a podcast where all I have to do is just get on the microphone and show up, right?

Karin Conroy (48:17.991)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (48:27.109)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (48:37.106)
Yep, yes.

Davina Frederick (48:39.599)
And that is such a powerful change in the way that we think. And it was huge for me because I’ve always been, I’m that high achieving woman who’s like, I’m gonna do this myself. I’m like Sisyphus pushing that rock up the hill, right? But I am, there’s a limit.

Karin Conroy (48:53.424)
Yeah, right, right. But there’s a limit to your strength. And when you bring in all those extra people as part of your team, now all of a sudden you’re multiplying and that’s how you ripple out and scale. And there’s just no way, like as a solo, you’re only gonna ever have so many hours in your day and be able to work with so many clients. And so to try to figure out how to scale to that next level, you have to bring in, you’ve gotta have the who’s. You gotta, yeah.

Davina Frederick (49:18.808)
You’ve got to have other people. And I will say from a marketing standpoint, I’ll use as an example, I have a social media manager that I’ve worked with for, gosh, two or three years now for Instagram. And she is an expert on Instagram. She has a law degree, by the way, but she has an Instagram business and she is an expert. She knows when they’re changing the algorithm, when they’re doing things, whatever, she tells me what kind of content performs, what doesn’t. She gives me instructions. I try to…

Karin Conroy (49:31.984)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (49:36.317)
my gosh. Yeah.

Davina Frederick (49:48.399)
accommodate her as best I can. Sometimes I’m like I can’t do this thing or that, but her expertise. I don’t have time to go learn all that research it. Sit there and stitch videos together and put captions on. I don’t have time for that. I want somebody who’s an expert in that area who could do that so my so my clients are talking about Instagram like here. Hire this person or find somebody else like who does this because you know you don’t need to be an expert in everything you need to be your thing.

Karin Conroy (49:50.288)
Yeah. Right.

Karin Conroy (50:10.149)
Yes. Yeah.

No, and if you try to, you’re taking away from your own expertise in your main thing. So, we did a Gallup strength finder at the end of grad school too. And the whole point there, which I think it’s called something else now, but the whole idea of strength finder is like, let’s recognize your strengths. And then those other things, we’re going to set those aside because they are detracting, distracting, whatever, you from your best work.

Davina Frederick (50:20.237)
Right.

Davina Frederick (50:40.428)
Right, right.

Karin Conroy (50:44.08)
And so let’s focus. That’s what it, it’s the same thing. I think they, like rebranded or something. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Davina Frederick (50:44.462)
Yeah, CliftonStrengths, I love it. I love it. Yeah, yeah, it’s my gallop. It’s called CliftonStrengths. Mine is I’m a strategic thinker and a relationship person. The top six are all either strategic thinker or relationship. So I’m like, okay, coaching is definitely sort of my thing that I love, Because, okay.

Karin Conroy (51:01.286)
That’s so funny. I’m strategic analytic. So I am just like strategic and then I will get it done. I will not talk about things if it’s not going to happen. So I love that. So, okay. So the book is Who Not How by Dayan Sullivan. It’s a classic. We’ll obviously link to that on the show page and everything, but it’s such a good mindset. And we were even laughing before we started recording about how the whole concept you be had to get from the title of the book.

Davina Frederick (51:12.078)
I love it.

Davina Frederick (51:30.156)
Yeah, the title of the book, I mean, it’s pretty much there.

Karin Conroy (51:31.514)
You should read it. Yeah, but you, but yeah, read it. But also like take that whole concept, whether you read it or not, kind of, and you know, soak that in. Demina Frederick is the founder and CEO of Wealthy Women Lawyer and the podcast Wealthy Woman Lawyer. It is such a good podcast. You really, really need to tune into that and recognize these advantages that we have as women that can definitely be used in a marketing perspective.

Davina Frederick (51:39.842)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (52:00.442)
as well as all of your other business building things, but we’re talking about marketing here. don’t downplay those. Those are unique advantages that you can definitely use in a way to build your law firm. And then when you get to that point where you’re building it, reach out to Davina and get to the seven figures too. So thank you so much for being here.

Davina Frederick (52:18.808)
Thank you, Karn. Thanks, Karn. I really enjoyed it as usual when I talked to you.