Is Your Law Firm Brand Actually Just… Bland? with Reid Holmes

Reid (00:01.457)
Hi, I’m Reed Holmes and I’m thrilled to be a Karin’s guest today. I am a kind of been called a marketing therapist by people I work with. Uh, but really I have a 30 year history in branding and strategy and advertising. Uh, I’ve worked on a lot of big brands from H and R block to Toro to Burger King to Domino’s pizza to Mayo clinic. And, I’ve taken what I’ve, uh,

learned over these 30 years and put it in a book called appreciated branding, which is over my shoulder for those who are watching. And, it’s, became a, became a best seller in drag. it where wrong to drop your own name? and, became a best seller on Amazon, which I’m very proud of. And, I’m kind of out to just help brands, be more effective by doing more meaningful work.

Karin Conroy (00:35.958)
Yeah. Name drop. It’s okay.

Karin Conroy (00:54.356)
Awesome. Read, this is one of my, we talked about this briefly, but this is one of my favorite topics. But before we get into it, I just want to say the title for the show is, is your law firm actually just bland? Which I feel like it’s such a good play on words. I love it. And we’re going to dig into appreciated branding, like what that is and how it works and why it’s different from kind of what people typically think of branding. So let’s start.

big picture because I feel like there’s so many places that people get branding wrong, just even in their general thought about what it is and how it works and how to do it. So where do you start with like just trying to steer people on course with how to think about it in the right way?

Reid (01:46.297)
Yeah, that’s a great question. I come from a world where I was a creative director for years and heard clients say, can you increase the branding on ads? Which is, among, know, it’s kind of a big, it’s kind of a big tell that you don’t really know what branding is because brand branding is not a logo brand. A logo is a, is a visual identifier. a logo is like your name in print.

Karin Conroy (01:59.564)
Like what?

Karin Conroy (02:05.192)
Yes! Right.

Yes.

Reid (02:15.237)
But who you are as a person, how you behave, the associations people have with you, that’s your brand. And it’s the same for brands as it is for people. so, the, the way, expectations that people have of you, their familiarity with you, their familiarity with, you know, can they trust you? Are you a risk mitigator for them in their lives? Which is essentially what a brand is in many ways. It’s well, I know this entity.

and, my taking a chance on this is, is mitigated by the fact that I know, you know, who they, how they’ll behave and who they are and what they do.

Karin Conroy (02:54.164)
Yes. Yeah, I know what to expect. I don’t have to sit and think through this decision as much because I have already got data points on this brand that helps me expedite my choice.

Reid (03:07.523)
That’s right. that’s why brands command higher margins because they make decision making so much easier because you’re not risking your money on a fail. You’re investing on more of a known outcome.

Karin Conroy (03:19.426)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (03:26.05)
That’s a perfect segue to what I was just thinking about for my next question is basically why should people care? Because before we start digging into the mistakes people are making and how to do it right and everything, let’s talk about why they should even care about this. Because once again, going back to this logo idea, everybody thinks it’s the pretty stuff. Everybody thinks it’s just the visuals and maybe some sort of like woo woo messaging and everything, but it’s like.

Why do we spend so much time and effort? And you kind of were alluding to that a little bit in terms of how the decisions get made more quickly, but let’s dig more specifically into what this means for the bottom line. Like, why does this actually matter to your law firm, to your bottom line? And how does it play out in terms of, like in your experience with those bigger brands where it’s done well and you can see the results?

Reid (04:17.743)
Yeah. So, the more people who know about your brand and know what it will do, what, it will deliver the more, the bigger your, what I would call your success surface area. if all you do is spend, for example, spend your money on performance marketing, which is, Hey, we’re on sale, you know, and you spend your money on that every darn time your brand associations are, I’ll just wait till they’re on sale again.

Karin Conroy (04:40.653)
Yes.

Reid (04:47.793)
because it’s, it’s a commodity product and I can, mean, one of the things that’s happened with branding these days is I think it’s changed significantly from when branding really started in earnest, which I would argue is probably in the fifties during the, um, soap opera era. Well, that was, this was before the mad men of the sixties. Uh, this was when, um, ad agencies produced programming. They produced content, the original content.

Karin Conroy (04:48.033)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (05:06.038)
Mad Men. Yeah.

Okay.

Reid (05:17.617)
because they needed a place to put ads. There wasn’t a lot of content out there that you could just buy an audience. So the first thing ad agencies did through Procter and Gamble is propose, entertainment that they knew women who working or working in the home would, would appreciate, is, soap operas. And they called them soap operas because they, you could advertise soap. Yeah. And soap is.

Karin Conroy (05:24.536)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:43.926)
Yeah, they’re selling soap. Yeah, don’t think anybody puts that together. why are we, why do we call them soap operas? Like, I think that’s fascinating.

Reid (05:50.458)
Yeah, it’s because they originally, you back in after the war, the American home became an industrialized place where every automatic and automatic washing machines, dryers, all these refrigerators, they all started being mass produced and they needed the ancillary tools that you would use to, to get them to work. One of those things being washing powder. And there were three or four brands and

Karin Conroy (06:00.472)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:15.628)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (06:19.109)
You know, you probably picked one based on, mean, back then you could, you could probably talk about the fact that, I get my, I’ll get your whites whiter or I’ll keep your colors brighter. Nowadays you stand in the aisle at a Walmart or a big box store. You stand in the wash, the dry, the, deter, laundry detergent, you, laundry detergent aisle. And, there’s 60 different products that all solve the same problem.

Karin Conroy (06:37.836)
Laundry. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:43.564)
Yes. Yes.

Reid (06:46.041)
And so many people, so many brands and so many marketers are like, well, we, our message is whiter whites. I saw one the other day. was like, well, we’re three shades, whiter whites. Like two things, no one’s making their decision based on that. It’s just, it’s just, I mean, every one of these products will solve the problem of getting my clothes clean. I’m either choosing because I like the smell more than likely I’m picking the one that’s the.

Karin Conroy (07:02.313)
Right.

Karin Conroy (07:10.712)
Mm-hmm.

Reid (07:14.219)
on sale or the least expensive or the yeah, it’s based on price. And this is where, this is a place I call in the book called the, plateau of indifference. It’s like, I’ve got so many options. There’s nothing you can tell me that’ll make me want to spend more money on yours because of a better product result. And that, that starts to get into my idea of appreciated branding, which we can hold off on for now. But the point is,

Karin Conroy (07:15.47)
Price. Yeah, price bit, yes.

Karin Conroy (07:23.437)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (07:34.061)
Right.

Reid (07:41.496)
If you’re, if you’re only known in a saturated in commodity category, which I would argue law probably is because there are probably hundreds of lawyers in any given market. And the only way you’re going to have any confidence in which one you choose is either by throwing a dart or someone recommends you. And so that would be for me, if I were working in that category, I would be looking at how do I get more people to talk about me?

Karin Conroy (08:02.989)
Right.

Reid (08:11.065)
and talk about my story and talk about how I’m different. Because you never, it’s not like you can target people who will need a lawyer because sometimes it depends on what the lawyer, what the practice is, but it’s not like, I got hit by a car and now I’m in the market for a lawyer. You know, it’s not like taxes, for example, you know, at the rounding of every year, 300 million Americans are in the tax market, you know, and so.

Karin Conroy (08:27.064)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:35.596)
Right, yeah. Yeah, okay, so let’s go back to this idea of being in this saturated market. You’re standing in the laundry detergent aisle and you have, it’s become a commodity and they’re making that decision based on price. And I saw some recent kind of interesting discussion around how a lot of people have thought that marketing is just this interruption. You know, it’s kind of these commercials or it’s,

trying to interrupt that, if you’re kind of that second mover category. know, Tide, let’s just say is the main brand in the laundry detergent aisle. And so all those other guys are trying to catch up to Tide. And so they’re trying to interrupt Tide’s message. But what I hear you saying, and maybe you can talk more about this, is that that’s not the way to do it in a long-term sustainable way. Instead of interruption, it’s this idea of connection. And so that kind of goes into this

appreciated branding idea. And this is where I think I hear a lot of people getting it wrong in these initial conversations I have is they start by saying, we don’t do marketing. All we have been doing, we’ve got a law firm that has been around for 20 years, but we don’t do marketing. just, all our business comes through on referrals. And so what they’re telling me, what I hear is we don’t do ads because we think that’s smarmy, but

We had this 20 year based reputation that people continue to come to us for, and we’ve got a profitable law firm. So we’re doing something right, but I’m not calling that marketing. I’m calling that somehow some other thing. Yeah. But so I usually start by saying, okay, let’s back up. Like, you know, your referrals are marketing. You’re just not, you don’t have a system behind it, but that’s, you’re still doing it. So can you talk a little bit about how that all works and what this appreciated branding?

Reid (10:12.549)
Word of mouth, yeah.

Reid (10:20.729)
Hmm

Karin Conroy (10:28.558)
is in comparison to how people typically approach it and think of it.

Reid (10:34.863)
Yeah, I think from a broad stroke perspective, marketing is seen as mass media, interrupting people’s beginning in between people and their content. That’s been, that’s been the model since, you know, the fifties or forties, mean, in a sense, into the printed word, you know, I mean, ads that newspapers had ads back in, know, Benjamin Franklin printed newspapers with ads in them. So, but.

Karin Conroy (10:47.596)
Yes, 100%.

Karin Conroy (10:54.434)
for a long time.

Reid (11:04.303)
because media became linear, like radio and TV and that kind of thing. The interruption of, you know, my message before you see your content is a model that started with, you know, Texaco star theater, the radio shows they’d put on and this show brought to you by Texaco gasoline, you know, you have it. So, that is not as effective anymore. In fact, it causes a lot of,

consternation and it causes a lot of frustration. In fact, Havas did a study, Havas is a big agency network. and this is an off quoted study that most people, probably a lot of your listeners would be aware of, the, the, the stat was something like 77 % of brands could disappear and consumers wouldn’t care. And a lot of people walk away with that saying, well branding is dead then. And that is not.

Karin Conroy (11:53.72)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (12:00.96)
Right. It’s like, no, that’s not the takeaway people. Yeah, right.

Reid (12:02.459)
That’s not what, that’s not what that means. What that means is nobody’s doing it in a way that people would want to care about. And that’s where this appreciated branding idea comes in because everybody still thinks that, the job of marketing and advertising is to interrupt people to try and get them to care about you.

Karin Conroy (12:25.966)
in a really obnoxious way. Yeah, a couple of years ago, we went to Bhutan, is they outlaw all forms of science and advertisement, which was such a fascinating experience because by the end of the trip, and we were there for like three weeks, I couldn’t tell you the name of the national cigarette or the soda or any major

Reid (12:27.437)
and often in a very obnoxious way.

Karin Conroy (12:53.186)
brand that was local to their world. And meanwhile, we’re taking these long drives through the mountains and I’m just looking at the mountains. And I just, and so now when we take car rides and things, I look at it so differently, cause I’m like, ew, why are we, and it’s even just intrusive on your daily basis, like the billboards and all that. And I would love to see that change. don’t,

anticipate that we’ll ever get to that level of change. But when you perceive that as your ad and your approach, and that’s the once again, this intrusive, interrupting message, you’re starting off on a really sour note. That’s just not… So let’s flip it now and let’s talk about how to do it right. What this appreciated branding is and you kind of alluded to that and what are the things that we should be doing that would be

Reid (13:45.873)
Ahem.

Karin Conroy (13:50.636)
Not that.

Reid (13:52.124)
So brands still need to advertise. in my view, and what I’ve tried to do for 30 years as an executive creative director is allow people to feel like they don’t want that 30 seconds back, that it was stolen from them, that it was at least worth the 30 seconds that you gave them. And so you try to make it entertaining or somehow interesting or somehow meaningful or some utility or some learning that can come from it so that

You’re not just screaming about your product. And oftentimes a product in itself, if it’s unique and innovative enough and new can be that. Uber is a great example. Uber is a new product. Not so new anymore, but you know, they basically reinvented or invented a whole new category and that there’s something new and novel about that. And that in itself spreads the news for it because advertising at its heart is,

Karin Conroy (14:38.734)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Reid (14:47.203)
It’s a crutch. It’s a crutch because sometimes products just aren’t that good. They don’t get talked about. And, so what the, what they have to do is they spend millions, interrupting you to tell them, tell you to care about them. And my, my pivot is you have to prove that you care about me. And if you do something that proves you care about me, that’s a much more meaningful connection. That’s a much more meaningful, takeaway that’s going to get past a lot of my limbic.

Karin Conroy (14:52.46)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (15:00.312)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (15:05.399)
Yeah.

Reid (15:16.881)
kind of defenses. And that’s the flip. one ex- yeah, for sure.

Karin Conroy (15:18.872)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (15:22.838)
Yeah. So can you give me some examples? Because I was, while you’re describing that, I was picturing, especially social media ads. think this is where people see a lot of these examples. and it’s obviously there’s a lot of them that are obviously using the algorithm and they’re looking at what I’m searching for and then giving me sort of things that are tangentially related. And there’s many times when I’m like, that is exactly better than even what I found myself. This is exactly what I’m looking for. Thank you very much.

And then there’s times when it’s just this obnoxious, repetitive thing that I’ve already said no to four other times and it won’t leave me alone. And so there’s a big difference there in how I feel about those two brands.

Reid (16:05.711)
Yeah. Well, I call that in the book transaction chasing and it’s, I feel sorry for the marketing pros who have been, put in the position where the they’re just chasing data and chasing customers all around. I have a big, I started about four months ago, just posting content on Tik TOK under appreciated brand. And, one of my rants.

In fact, I just talked to a potential client yesterday. He’s like, that was one of my favorite videos. You were dropping F-bombs like crazy. And I’m like, yeah, sorry about that. And he’s like, no, no, I still remember it. But the whole idea is, and this happened to me. And the reason I was dropping F-bombs is because it was frustrating. And I searched for a canoe paddle to buy potentially at some point. And every time I went somewhere else on the internet, a canoe paddle company tried to get me.

Karin Conroy (16:39.276)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Reid (17:00.229)
to come to my senses and buy the paddle. And yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (17:03.724)
and they’re like super in your face. It’s like sort of these toxic ex people in a relationship where it’s like, yes, I’m like, we have ended this. Can you please like, we’re not part of each other’s lives anymore. Please move on.

Reid (17:09.199)
Yeah. Like, you feel like you’re being stalked. Yeah. Yeah. This is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, so when I, in this rant I did, I basically said, why can’t you find a way to add value to my life? You know, where I am, you know, I might have an interest in this. It may not mean I’m specifically interested in a canoe paddle or even your canoe paddle. Why don’t you?

Karin Conroy (17:28.0)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (17:39.098)
If you’re going to target me with something, target me with a video on the benefits of wood versus plastic canoe paddles. Target me with a video or a PDF one sheet on the best national parks for canoeing. know, target me with, no, but it’s a value add.

Karin Conroy (17:46.643)
Yes!

Karin Conroy (17:58.754)
That’s it. Something that you didn’t even necessarily think of, but because you’re looking, right, and because you’re looking for a canoe paddle, this aligns with that. And so we’re gonna give you something beyond what you were even searching for and you’re like, with my new canoe paddle, that sounds like the perfect national park that I should be visiting.

Reid (18:07.931)
That’s right.

Reid (18:18.315)
Or it could be, definitely figured out that because I search for a canoe paddle, I like the outdoors. So from everything from the, the, the intricacies of how canoe paddles are made to the best national parks, to the different class ratings for, rivers and that kind of thing, to the top, best time to go in the fall to see the leaves is you’re going to canoe in the boundary waters or something, you know, like

Karin Conroy (18:24.631)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (18:46.283)
Yeah, so

Reid (18:46.609)
Those are the kinds of things that I would go, thank you. That’s really helpful.

Karin Conroy (18:49.27)
Right. But in comparison, what were they actually feeding you? Just like canoe paddle, canoe paddle, canoe paddle, you know, with the big price amount on it and just the same generic buy now, buy now, buy now. Yeah.

Reid (18:59.843)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

And it wasn’t the same one. was just, were thinking, I think they were thinking, well, he doesn’t like that one. So let’s serve him this one. And it’s just like, that’s, you don’t get it. You don’t, you’re not getting this, you know?

Karin Conroy (19:12.206)
Yeah. It reminds me of the, there used to be a trend in law firm sites, and this was way back, maybe at least 10 years ago, where the lawyer would like walk out of the screen and it was so creepy. And it’s like, can you see me right now? Like, what are you doing? Like, you, you know, it’s, was so over the line between like, you know, for whatever reason you’re looking for a lawyer.

there’s a good chance that you want some amount of privacy with whatever you’re doing. so for someone to be walking out of the screen and saying, I see you in a kind of creepy way, it was so wrong. And I talk about that one all the time because it was insane. And I wasn’t even looking for a lawyer. I was just looking at these sites in comparison. And so I’m thinking from a perspective of a potential client, mean, maybe it worked for some people, but

Reid (19:49.967)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (20:07.35)
I don’t see that anymore. Nobody’s doing that anymore.

Reid (20:10.159)
Yeah, this is people who don’t understand. mean, the highest paid marketers are the ones who do it themselves and think that they’re doing something really creative and breakthrough. And oftentimes they’re not really tuned into, the tone of what they’re doing and how it might apply to, their ability to be trusted, their ability to be able to read the room, which is a pretty big deal.

Karin Conroy (20:25.067)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (20:31.02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how can we take these ideas of this appreciated brand where you’re providing the difference in those canoe paddles? Like you’re providing all this value, all this information, and you’re kind of pulling a potential person who’s looking for these canoe paddles as opposed to just canoe paddles kind of slapping you across the face with that. How can you kind of take that into a law firm?

Reid (20:59.833)
Well, my answer would be, can you proactively help people? And I mean, that’s basically it. And, and okay, so let’s get into a law firm. What kind of law is it? Is it family law? Okay. Family law. what is the number one or number two issue people face? Is it, generational wealth? Is it, you know, death of a, of a

Karin Conroy (21:00.216)
concept strategy.

Karin Conroy (21:20.536)
Mm-hmm.

Reid (21:29.611)
elderly person and, and passing that. What, don’t know what that is, but what I would figure out is what can I do to proactively help people ahead of that time? so if you, and a lot of times you can get data to target people with this kind of content, but you’re not saying pay attention to me, pay attention to me. You’re saying you should know this, it’s going to help you. And, it’s kind of like, by the

Karin Conroy (21:49.623)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (21:59.598)
The imprimatur of your being the bringer of that message means that you will just be looked upon more favorably. And when you’re in them, then you’re, finally in the mix of kind of going, okay, well now we need a lawyer. you know, those guys that had that one thing that helped us understand that we should call those guys. They knew what they were talking about. And I kind of want to trust them because they didn’t ask me for anything.

Karin Conroy (22:07.533)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (22:17.238)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Yeah. They knew what they were talking about. Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Reid (22:26.705)
They just came out and said, here’s something for you that’ll help. You know, here’s another example, uh, one of my favorite examples of what I would call appreciated branding. there’s a brand of, um, Likur in Spain called Rua Vieja. And this is in the book. Rua Vieja has, I don’t know, 200, they’re like the de Kuiper of Spain. have 200 different flavors of.

Karin Conroy (22:44.632)
Okay.

Reid (22:55.217)
of, know, of, of a cordial kind of drink that you’d have. And, um, they, they could have, um, come out and said, Hey, now we’ve got one that’s, um, great for people with. Sensitive. What I can’t remember what it is when you don’t, um, gluten free. Yeah. Okay. Now we’ve got a gluten free. We’ve got a gluten free one. That’s so, you know, we were the guys with the gluten free one, but they.

Karin Conroy (22:58.903)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (23:14.379)
like gluten-free. Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (23:22.339)
And they had that, but they didn’t do that. What they did is they figured out that, human beings take for granted how much time they’re going to have left on this planet. And they take for granted the fact that they can go have a drink with a friend next week or next month or next year. They’ll be there. And so they, they went to the Spanish, the Spanish government had a, a database of, of life expectancies and all this kind of stuff.

So they tied into that and they created a kind of an interface online where you could go in and see, okay, I’m going to put in my friend and me, and I’m going to figure out exactly how much time we would have to spend together based on our lives, based on everything over the next, you know, until, until we’re on our last lap. Right. So, it came back that, it’s just not as much time as you think.

Karin Conroy (24:08.322)
Gosh, 30 years or yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:19.735)
Never, yeah.

Reid (24:20.279)
And so the, the campaign was called, have to spend more time together. And they did videos of, of friends seeing each other who hadn’t seen each other in a long time. They sit down, they each have their, their drink, but it’s not really about that. It’s about them telling a story about how much they didn’t realize how fleeting this life is and how you’ve got to spend time with it. Their sales went up 46%.

Karin Conroy (24:24.302)
Karin Conroy (24:31.67)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:35.468)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:40.757)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:45.774)
I mean, talk about an emotional connection. I was sitting here thinking, okay, how do we do this emotional connection? How, how, how, how, how? Everybody, they understand theoretically about we should be connecting emotionally versus this intrusive interrupting, whatever. But that’s the easy road. The billboard or just throwing together, slapping together the ad. But it also feels like when you’re…

at sort of a networking event or talking to other people and it’s that person who won’t stop talking about themselves and nobody likes them. Everybody’s like stop and they just are like in your face and can I tell you about this? Can I tell you about this thing I did? And a good thing I saw recently was this idea of credentials versus outcomes and I see this all the time. Leading with the outcomes over your credentials and

The easy option and what I’ve seen a million times in the past is that the lawyers, especially if there’s a relatively large size team, they care so much about their bio pages and their bio and listing every single case they’ve tried over the last 30 years, which nobody, including Google, wants to see that. And listing, listing all, every single credential and instead of talking to those clients about what the outcome

the potential outcome is and what it means to them and leading with that. And then talking about how you’ve created that kind of outcome in the past. It’s this kind of, sounds like a somewhat minor shift, but it’s everything. That’s, it seems like it’s what you’re describing.

Reid (26:26.745)
Yeah, it’s, it’s about, you know, it’s, enough about me. What do you think about me versus versus, tell me about yourself. What, what are your, you know, you have to start with values. You have to kind of figure out what are, what are your top values? And there’s a book out by a guy named, David, Addison, and it’s called, we’re not the same age anymore. And it’s about the breakdown of targeting based on.

Karin Conroy (26:33.548)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (26:43.875)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (26:52.706)
Yeah.

Reid (26:56.509)
demographic stereotypes, know, Jen, Jen Z, Jen X, whatever. Well, I’m Jen X and I care about a lot of stuff. My kids care about when they’re Jen, I don’t even know what they would be there. Alpha. Yeah. And, so, so it’s, it, you’re leaving a lot of potential business on the table. If you’re just talking to a generation and making assumptions about what they care about. There are.

Karin Conroy (26:59.47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (27:06.07)
Yeah, Alpha. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (27:19.756)
Yeah. Yeah, it’s oversimplifying it.

Reid (27:23.597)
It’s oversimplifying it and it’s such a, you know, it’s such a mass marketing targeting, kind of shortcut that, that you don’t need anymore because you have data on, all these people and you can figure out, well, if you’re, if I’m looking for a canoe paddle, I must value adventure. I must value, I must value the outdoors. I must value, maybe clean water, maybe clean air.

Karin Conroy (27:43.862)
Right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (27:50.7)
Yeah, right.

Reid (27:51.248)
Maybe those are my values. And if those are my values, then you can create messages and tools and things that, would appeal to me as that person. And by the way, even as a gen X or who loves clean air and clean water, so do my kids, you know? And, you know, so it’s, you know, there are those who don’t really care and that’s, that’s their thing. but maybe they’re not looking for a canoe paddle. Maybe they’re looking for, you know, an ashtray. I don’t know, but,

Karin Conroy (28:05.942)
Yeah, right, exactly.

Right? But maybe they’re not looking for a canoe paddle. Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Reid (28:21.051)
But you know, that’s their values and then they can value that however they want. There’s no disrespect to that. It’s just, that’s how you talk. There are plenty of people in my generation who still smoke and they don’t care about getting outside or getting exercise or going for a hike or anything like that. But you can make assumptions based on what people search for and what people potentially shop for, to understand what their values are. And when you do, you can create a meaningful experience for them that they will appreciate.

Karin Conroy (28:31.427)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:50.508)
Okay, so give me some examples of what that looks like. I love the canoe paddle example, but what would that meaningful, what would that campaign look like and where would they start in terms of that, like a campaign for some type of experience like that? And I mean, if you wanna stick with the canoe paddle, I feel like that’s a good story and we were already kinda halfway down that road.

or maybe something more specific to a law firm, but where would they start with that campaign that feels more, because it does sound to me like you’re really taking it to a different level. You’re not just saying you’re searching for a canoe paddle, here’s a canoe paddle. You’re really putting more thought and effort and strategy behind it. So it does, there’s like an extra layer of effort there that I think people need to consider, but where do they start with that?

Reid (29:41.84)
Well, there’s a few different ways to go. I think, a big way to leverage appreciation is through the people who already appreciate you. So for example, one of the stories in the book, a friend of mine took a job as an assistant manager at a local, up here in the upper Midwest, a grocery store called Hy-Vee. and they, they’re, they’re a pretty good, you know, they’re not, they’re not high end.

Karin Conroy (29:54.411)
Yeah.

Reid (30:09.723)
carpeted grocery store, but they’re, very good. They’re, they’re not like, I don’t know what it was a Kroger or Ralph’s or something. They’re, they’re, they’re up there. And, he told me the story as I was explaining that I’m writing this book and he said, well, I got a story for you. He said, I’m working, I’m two weeks into this job. COVID is, is ramping up and, a woman had ordered groceries.

Karin Conroy (30:16.086)
Yeah.

Reid (30:38.513)
came to pick them up and they weren’t ready. So I went to my boss and I said, oh my gosh, what do we do? Like she’s out there. And he said three things. One, you’re gonna give her a hundred dollar gift card. Two, you’re going to send her home and you’re gonna tell her that we will bring her groceries to her once we shop them, shop the order. And number three, you will deliver her groceries to her house and you’ll help.

even put them away for her if she wants. That creates a story. And this is where I talk about, don’t talk to me about yourself. Do things that are worth talking about. And so if you’re in, if you’re a firm and you can do figure out what can we do that would make the people we’re trying to attract, appreciate us.

Karin Conroy (31:22.178)
Yeah.

Reid (31:36.85)
appreciate what we do and it can be everything from, well, we, we work pro bono with the elderly to, know, whatever, to, to, we, we spend one day or like we spend one day every, six months at a retirement home to make sure everybody’s legal stuff is set up and we do videos on it and we tell stories about some of these people and how we help them and they have emotion behind them and they have the whole.

Gosh, what would I have done without you in this of them? you, you find ways to tell those emotional stories and oftentimes to create that content, you know, you have to, no, find ways to do good in the world. You know,

Karin Conroy (32:07.958)
Yeah, yes.

Karin Conroy (32:19.584)
And let’s be honest, like if you’re a law firm that’s been around for more than six months, you should have some of these stories or, you know, let’s back up a few steps because you’re doing something wrong. But if you are not helping people to a point where they have stories and you now have case studies and, you know, I do get some kickback on this sometimes where like there’s privacy, things that you need to cover. I get that. But there’s ways of speaking about it in a neutral way.

Reid (32:25.701)
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.

Karin Conroy (32:49.122)
where you take the names out or you talk broadly about these types of success. There’s ways of doing it that are safe. And if you don’t have these stories, you got to start working on that. Like that’s the first step, I think. And if you have the stories, let’s talk about that. Let’s not talk about where you went to college and a case that, you know, some journal article that you wrote three years ago. Let’s talk about the stories.

Reid (32:54.969)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (33:13.893)
Yeah. And I think that’s, I mean, there’s a line in politics that says if, if you’re something like, you’re arguing your side, you’re losing. Like it’s, it’s not about trying to be yet another voice in the cacophony of voices saying we’re better than them. That’s, that’s just not going to get you to that, you know, really strong growth. have to find a way to tell stories and to be about,

Karin Conroy (33:23.288)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:32.149)
Yes.

Reid (33:42.596)
being a bigger solution in the world. Another great example from my book is, deluxe checks. So deluxe deluxe. Yeah. Deluxe is a, they make checks for, they used to make them, you know, for. I’ve got a checkbook around here somewhere. I don’t think I’ve written a check in years, but, yeah. So, a friend of mine went and took a job there and I’m like, why would you go take a job at a buggy whip company? mean, I don’t understand. You know,

Karin Conroy (33:50.252)
I remember this brand.

Karin Conroy (34:00.854)
Yeah, I write like two a year. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (34:11.662)
Yeah.

Reid (34:12.029)
And she, but she’s a bit of an iconoclast and she’s just like, no, we’re going to figure out how to help take this company, this brand and reinvigorate it for the next, the next century.

Karin Conroy (34:21.75)
Wow. This is an interesting story because it does like my first reaction is that’s super outdated. I was just describing my daughter and I saw a woman in line at Costco the other day who was writing a check and I had to explain to her it was and how it worked. Yeah.

Reid (34:36.621)
What’s a check? Yeah. yeah. And actually a separate Costco is, an absolute appreciated brand. Costco is a reverse targeted brand. talk about in that book about getting, getting reverse targeted means they don’t even buy advertising. The people who love Costco shoot videos of what’s new this week at Costco. And they put them on online and it’s like irresistible. Some of the most watched content because it’s like, what’s going to be in there now.

Karin Conroy (34:46.582)
Yes, yes, yeah, beloved.

Karin Conroy (35:00.556)
Yep. Yep.

100%. Yes. Yeah.

Reid (35:06.329)
You know, so, so that’s another kind of thing, but that’s different than, than the lawyer side. But, but in terms of a service business, deluxe check, had nothing but a runway ending, you know, and no hope of takeoff. so, Amanda went in there and she learned, well, they’re trying to create some digital tools. deluxe was their sweet spot was always small businesses.

Karin Conroy (35:19.851)
Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Reid (35:34.158)
And a lot of us don’t know that because they got famous just printing checks for everybody’s checking account and probably making pretty, pretty good money at it. and as eventually happens, you know, the margins on that gets smaller and smaller and then it’s just on, it’s unsustainable. can’t cut anymore. can’t, know, pipe paper costs are paper costs. anyway, long story short, she realized that, they spent a lot of money on,

Karin Conroy (35:39.404)
Right.

Reid (36:02.885)
I guess, performance marketing, direct mail. And, you know, it would be a thing like, hey, and you get a card or something. Deluxe check, go to deluxecheck.com, try out our new small business office suite of tools to help you run your small business. And they were not getting a lot of traction because everybody was looking at it as like deluxe. They’re like a check company. What do I care about them? So what she did is she decided.

Karin Conroy (36:05.346)
Okay.

Reid (36:30.767)
that instead of spending money on paid advertising and brand quote unquote brand advertising, she was going to take that money and she put together a show called Small Business Revolution Main Street. And the show ran for six seasons and it was it was on Hulu, it was nominated for an Emmy and she ended up getting guests like Robert Hercevik from

Karin Conroy (36:45.91)
cool.

Reid (36:59.055)
Shark Tank and the guy from the show, Move That Bus Show, can’t remember the name. Tyler something or Tyler, yeah. Yeah. And he was a guest kind of leader on those episodes. And they would go to these small towns and they’d go into the small businesses and say, we’re here to help.

Karin Conroy (37:00.087)
Yeah!

Karin Conroy (37:06.774)
Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, I don’t remember the name of that show either, but I know what you’re talking about.

Karin Conroy (37:21.738)
Nice.

Reid (37:21.775)
You know, we’re here to help you set up a better way to do business, better way to sustain your business. know you’re getting eaten alive by these big box stores that are coming down on the edge of town. Main streets are dying. We don’t want that to happen. We’re here to help. And they created these shows based on, you know, basically being followed around. Like it was, you know, real housewives or something, but it was about building this, these businesses back up.

Karin Conroy (37:34.678)
Wow.

Karin Conroy (37:42.807)
Yeah.

kind of doing a refresh and trying to like improve efficiencies and find, I’m picturing like the, there was one show like that that was like they would go into hotels and do that kind of thing or restaurants and update. Yeah. Yeah. Restaurant Impossible. Robert Irvine. Yeah. We did too. Yeah.

Reid (37:51.515)
Yeah.

Reid (37:57.21)
Yeah. yeah, that, kind of thing. The, what’s his name? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. That’s right. I used to get, I used to love watching those things. it’s like the ultimate renovation show, you know? So, and that’s in a sense, what they’re doing is a renovation show on how to renovate your business and get it working better. And here’s the tools and here’s things that aren’t that, that aren’t part of the tools, but things you should be thinking about when you do your business.

Karin Conroy (38:09.386)
Yes, yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:14.731)
Yeah.

Reid (38:22.565)
They, lot of people watch these, a lot of small business people watch these because everybody, no matter where you are, is always trying to be better tomorrow than they were today at whatever they’re trying to do. And that’s what attracted them to, I could learn something about that. If I can get my business working better, I’ll have a better future. I’ll have a better, whatever. can turn it over to my kids, whatever. And that’s why this show was so popular because deluxe wasn’t putting deluxe in your face. It just said.

Karin Conroy (38:27.64)
Every.

Karin Conroy (38:32.012)
Yes. Yes.

Karin Conroy (38:40.812)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (38:52.517)
Presented by deluxe. That’s about it The next time she said we did a direct mail drop after like the first season or whatever our response went up 11x

Karin Conroy (39:04.536)
my gosh, that’s amazing.

Reid (39:06.479)
And you’re never going to get that from interrupting people, telling them how great your brand is. You are helping them. You’re actively going, well, here’s how I can help you. The time. And by the way, in the soap opera era, that’s all they were doing. We can help you. We have this powder that goes with your machine. That’s how we’re helping you. But that’s all just noise now because categories are saturated. So you have to find a way to break through is to show that you care. That’s all there is to it.

Karin Conroy (39:10.934)
Yeah, yeah, the obnoxious method. Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (39:22.742)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s amazing. Okay. So it is time for the book review. And if you have not checked it out, there is a whole library on the podcast part of the website where we have all the books that all of the guests have recommended. So you can, and you can sort it by category and it’s really well done if I do say my so-so myself. So Reed, what is the book that you’re going to recommend for our library today?

Reid (39:36.145)
Yeah.

Reid (40:03.579)
Well, you know, there’s a lot of them. I toyed with one called this is strategy by Seth Godin, which I think is amazing. Amazing. And maybe you’ve already got that one. The one I suggested was, the untethered soul. And the reason I, I suggested it is because it’s been incredibly helpful to me. Just in my kind of personal life and in my relationships and even, you know,

Karin Conroy (40:08.942)
yeah, that’s a good one. Yes. I might, yeah.

Karin Conroy (40:16.344)
Yes.

Reid (40:28.313)
I asked my wife to read it because I think she could benefit from it too and she did and our whole relationship has gotten better because we’re just like, we don’t have to grab onto these feelings. It’s a train that’s just going by. Let’s just let it go by. Let it go by. It’s not defining who you are. It’s not something you need to give energy to. Even though you might feel compelled to do that.

Karin Conroy (40:40.226)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (40:47.328)
Yes.

Okay, so tell me what’s the basic premise of the book? Because I’ve had this one on my list for a while, but what’s the premise and then what is it that you really liked about it?

Reid (40:59.557)
What I liked about it is, it, the, the idea of the untethered soul is essentially the events that happen, in your life only define you in as much as you let them. And so if you, if, I did a post on tick tock about this the other day, if someone makes you feel bad about yourself, it’s not your fault. It’s, or it’s not their fault. It’s your fault.

Karin Conroy (41:14.178)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (41:26.52)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Reid (41:27.673)
Are you going to give that energy? Are you going to give that your precious time and dwell on that and let it make you feel that way? You don’t have to. You have the choice. As a matter of fact, I was just watching a clip. didn’t watch the whole thing, but, you know, you might be a Taylor Swift fan. I, I’m, I, yeah, there you go. So you’re probably, I mean, I know a little bit about her music, but I’ve, I’ve learned more about her since her and Travis Kelsey started, you know, cause I’m a football fan.

Karin Conroy (41:32.962)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, right.

Karin Conroy (41:44.526)
Yeah, I have two girls. Yes.

Karin Conroy (41:53.602)
Yeah.

Reid (41:55.25)
But, um, so she was on his podcast and it was kind of a big deal and I haven’t seen the whole thing, but I heard one quote that I thought, oh my gosh, that’s why she is who she is. And she said, treat your energy like it’s a, um, a luxury item. Don’t let people afford it. They can’t don’t not, not everybody can afford it. And yeah.

Karin Conroy (41:58.25)
Yes, it was kind of a big deal.

Karin Conroy (42:06.485)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (42:12.373)
Yes.

Yeah, not everybody can afford it. Yes, yes. I feel like this is one of the quotes of the year that everybody’s gonna have that recap at the end of the year and they’re gonna come back to that one. Because yeah, not everybody can afford you. And I feel like that goes so perfectly with this idea of the brand and elevating yourself and whatever and recognize that you should be at that elevated message and everything and you shouldn’t be speaking down.

Reid (42:24.787)
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s

Karin Conroy (42:41.422)
to the people who are nitpicking and penny pinching and everything and looking for that intrusive cheap ad. You should be speaking at a higher level.

Reid (42:51.201)
Absolutely. And I think if you’re asking for people to give you their energy, you’re much more predisposed to get it if you’re doing something that’s giving and proactive and problem solving and non-expectant of anything. That’s where you, you know, there’s a line, I’d have to look it up in this book, but I think it was,

Karin Conroy (43:10.562)
Yes. Yeah.

Reid (43:20.483)
One sec here, I’ll give it to you. yeah. He says, Roy Spence of, of, Austin, Texas ad agency, GSTNM. And he wrote this book called it’s not what you sell. It’s what you stand for. And he says, what that is, is it’s your reason for being that goes beyond making money. It almost always results in making more money than you ever thought possible. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:40.013)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:45.601)
100%. And I say a lot of times, go back to the reason you even went to law school. Like where did it start? Where is it in your core? And start from there and know that that is the reason that you made a lot of the choices about, you know, your practice area, the kind of work you’re doing, you know, all of that. And start from there in terms of what people are looking for and then how you kind of provide that solution. But

where you really are feeling it too. Like what matters to you and people are going to feel that right away if you care about it or if it’s just sort of performative. Yeah.

Reid (44:23.153)
Yeah. Well, and, but, that’s a good distinction because I talk about not only what you do, but what you solve. And the funny thing is, is, uh, my daughter’s 20 and she’s going back to college, uh, next week. Um, and I’m always like, Hey, will you watch a movie with us tonight? You know, and she’s just like, no, I’m going to be talking to my boyfriend or whatever. Yeah. And I finally got her to watch the movie and we, watched Aaron Brockovich, which I hadn’t, I hadn’t watched in 30 years.

Karin Conroy (44:30.797)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (44:41.614)
You

Yeah, you’re not cool enough.

cute! Yes!

Reid (44:52.281)
And I’m watching, I’m going, Aaron Brockovich was off the radar being paid to proactively go help solve a big problem for people. And it resulted in that firm getting multimillion dollar settlement and, and, solving more big problems out there that people need help for. And they don’t know how to navigate the legal system and they don’t know.

Karin Conroy (44:57.282)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (45:04.014)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (45:09.912)
going huge.

Reid (45:22.469)
how to get to that place where they’re made whole or they’re, you know, someone’s protecting them or someone’s looking out for them. God, what a great, I mean, think about what a great profession. If, if you, if you can, if you can point your efforts toward how do I use what I do, that’s all I’m trying to do in my career. Now I know how to do a lot of different things, particularly with marketing. How do I go out there and help people be better versions of themselves? That’s kind of my life goal.

Karin Conroy (45:26.786)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (45:31.33)
Yeah. What a great story. Aaron Brockovich. Yes. If you do it right.

Karin Conroy (45:42.903)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (45:50.144)
Yeah. Yeah. Think about it. Aaron Brockovich is a household name now. Before that case, that, I mean, according to the movie and who knows if this was kind of over dramatized, that firm was barely scraping it together. Like that, you know, in the movie, they’re like not, not super wealthy. Not.

Reid (46:02.979)
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think he said something like, you know, I’ve managed to scrape away, put away about a million dollars over 30 years and I’m getting ready to go spend it. And now I’m spending it on all this stuff you’re telling me to do. And,

Karin Conroy (46:20.364)
Right. And think about the difference and not just in monetary success, but like you were describing the kinds of cases, the kind of work and everything that came because they took those big leaps, but also followed what she really cared about. And so, you know, come back to all of that and then connect that emotional message to all of it. And that is going to get you, set you off on a totally different path where you’re not just competing like

head to head with these sort low level players. So Reed, what is the thing that people should do first when they’re done listening to this complete episode and they listen to the whole thing all the way to the end and give me the full download. But once they’re done and they’ve kind of got all this thought about kind of connecting to this emotional connection idea instead of being just an interrupting.

There’s this joke about an interrupting cow that one of my kids says, and I just keep thinking about this interrupting cow. What’s the first thing they should do to not be that interrupting cow?

Reid (47:26.255)
If you’re spending money on marketing, I would take five, 10 % of it and figure out something you could do that you can use. What essentially is a free distribution system called social media that, that will get the exposure it deserves by the virtue of the quality of its content. And you, it will be a win or learn situation. You will either strike it gold and go viral, which, you know, it’s like trying to pick a hit record. You don’t know.

Karin Conroy (47:44.994)
Yes.

Reid (47:55.886)
I had a time. mean, there are certain things we can calibrate to, try and propagate that. But at the end of the day, you’re going to have content that you can point to, and that people can watch to get to know you. I have been shocked. I have been on Tik TOK now, and I’m not advocating people go start a Tik TOK channel or whatever, but I’ve been on Tik TOK for four or now five months. And I, I’m

getting more followers, get complimented every day on the content. I try to help people. try to give them advice on how to do their marketing and all that. I’m not expecting anything in return, but there’s a, there’s a saying in marketing is be known before you’re needed. And if you can be known before you’re needed for something, then that’s important. So for example,

Karin Conroy (48:31.533)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (48:37.324)
Yes.

Reid (48:45.553)
Could you do take on a pro bono case and have them follow you around like it’s, you know, like it is a little show and do little showlets about it. And you’ll probably get some fans who want to watch it and you’ll probably get people who will want to share it, you know, and you’d obviously have to edit around, like you said, some of the privacy stuff, but get the cameras in the room during the first, tell me about your problem. Tell me how, you know, cause this is one of the things we try to do with our clients. This is one of the things.

Karin Conroy (48:54.818)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (49:02.701)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (49:07.372)
Right?

Karin Conroy (49:13.698)
Yes.

Reid (49:14.735)
Get the story out there, show people behind the curtain of who you are and how you work and how your values are and, and that you care. And that’s, that’s going to get you the best possible, no pun intended hearing, for those who may want to, or may need you in the future. So find a way to be known and when you’re needed, you’ll be on the list.

Karin Conroy (49:23.811)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (49:30.239)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (49:39.062)
and tell your own Erin Brockovich story. The reverse of that, that interrupting cow version that a lot of people do, and they try to do this shortcut is I’ve seen this countless times where they set up a photo shoot and it’s this fake photo shoot and they’re sitting in a conference room and they have like the receptionist come in and pretend to be a client. And you can tell in those fake photos that they’re fake. Like everyone can tell instantly as opposed to what you’re describing, which is

real content, you’re not setting up this fake scenario, you’re not doing a fake photo shoot, which is the super cheap, easy, fast, cheater kind of process. But what you’re describing is, you know, within reason, kind of create this content from stuff that’s actually happening. Real, real stuff.

Reid (50:26.383)
You know, so you could, so there’s a couple of guys that are great examples of this on Tik TOK. So there’s this one guy, he owns a luxury jet travel business and someone comes up to him every, you know, there’s a little short video he does every day and it’s worth watching. Cause it’s just like, I can’t believe people spend money like this. So, so he’s like, Hey, what’s up? And someone on the end of the phone says, and some of it’s muted out because they don’t want to say, okay, so you’re in Fiji and you need to get to Bali. Okay. I have a Gulf stream.

Karin Conroy (50:34.423)
Yeah.

Reid (50:55.737)
I have a, know, I have a whatever, know, three different planes, how much room you need. I’ve only got, you know.

three people, but we do want to make sure it’s got Fiji water on it, you know, or whatever, you know. And I mean, this was one of the comments. like, so, so this one I can have it to you. You can leave in two hours. I’ve got a crew a half hour south. You’re to fly. And I think it was Seattle to Fiji or something. So I’ve got a plane and the plane you want is in Portland. I got to get my guys out there. It’ll take them an hour and a half to get on the plane, get it going. They’ll fly it up to Seattle, pick you up. They’ll have their Fiji water and you’ll be off to Fiji. And the cost for that is $265,000.

Karin Conroy (51:09.774)
Right.

Karin Conroy (51:21.805)
Yeah.

Reid (51:35.716)
And then the response is, that’s not bad. You know? And so what I, if I were a lawyer, God, the stories they must have. So have someone come up to you and go, Hey, tell me the, tell me a great law courtroom story, you know, and keep it, you know, keep it. You know, not NDA. Yeah. Yeah. And, tell me that. So there’s another guy who’s, I think it’s his daughter and he’s, I think he’s Indonesian or whatever. He’s American.

Karin Conroy (51:38.591)
my gosh.

Karin Conroy (51:44.078)
Seriously? Exactly, exactly.

Karin Conroy (51:50.944)
Exactly. Yeah, or blurp certain parts out. Yeah, yeah.

Reid (52:04.753)
And I say that to help find him if you look for him But he’s always sitting behind a desk doing trading and all this stuff and all of a sudden someone come up and he’ll be like, oh, hey, what’s up? Oh, I was gonna ask you What do you think about the the tariffs and how they’re gonna affect and and he’ll give you the he’ll give you the Non-political here’s the here’s the deal, you know, I’m not saying this for because I’m pro anything or anti anything I’m just telling you how this is all gonna work from an economic perspective and he gets these millions of views

Karin Conroy (52:27.916)
Yeah, from an economic perspective, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Reid (52:33.957)
You know, he’s become this kind of thought leader. So it doesn’t take a lot of effort, you know, post one or two things a day or, or four or five things a week. don’t know. Some interesting story I during COVID and I know you’re probably like, Hey, we got to go. during, during COVID, for fun, I started thing called mad stories and I asked friends from advertising to send me a written story of.

Karin Conroy (52:38.594)
No.

Karin Conroy (52:49.77)
It’s you’re fine.

Reid (53:01.721)
some silly thing that they went through. Like one of mine was I got on a plane in LA to fly home to Minneapolis. And right before the door closed, John Mayer and Jessica Simpson came in and sat right in front of me. And, they were literally dating right in front of me and very, very much dating. And, I was, I had just gotten off the phone with my assistant who said, Hey, the suite at, the, at the hockey arena here.

Karin Conroy (53:13.929)
Nice!

Yeah. Yeah.

Reid (53:28.589)
is open if you want to bring any clients or you want to bring anybody. And I said, well, it’s the show’s tomorrow night. And then she was like, I said, who’s coming? She said, well, John Mayer. said, I said, okay. Well, the show, when is the show? it’s tomorrow night. gosh. I’m never going to get a client, but I might just take my wife. We might just go just for fun. And so that’s what we plan. And then next thing I know, I get off the phone, I get on the plane, on comes John Mayer. He’s flying from LA to Minneapolis to do his show. So he’s standing up in the, and we were in the front of the plane. I flew a lot. So I got upgraded a lot.

Karin Conroy (53:36.879)
my gosh!

Karin Conroy (53:52.995)
Yeah.

Reid (53:58.424)
And, he’s standing up there and he’s talking up one of the flight attendants. He likes her necklace or something. So I’m like, I gotta, I, you I gotta go up. mean, I’m not a huge fan of his, but I very much respect his guitar playing. I mean, it’s amazing. He’s amazing talent. And I, and since I realized I’m going to be going to his show the next night, I thought, I should go. So I went up to him and I said, I said, Hey, I’m going to your show tomorrow night. And he said, yeah, so am I. And I was just like,

Karin Conroy (54:08.844)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Reid (54:28.209)
I just kind of skulked away, went to the bathroom and I was just like, he made me feel, I mean, talk about, you know, the untethered soul. He made me feel bad about myself and I should not give him that permission. And I spent the next hour thinking what should have good retort have been to that.

Karin Conroy (54:31.176)
Why?

Karin Conroy (54:37.58)
Yes. Yeah.

Right.

Karin Conroy (54:46.37)
Yeah, how much of our lives do we spend doing that?

Reid (54:49.753)
And so I finally came up with it and it was long after he had gotten off the plane, but I should have said, I bet you’ll have better seats than I do. so anyway.

Karin Conroy (54:53.59)
Alright!

Karin Conroy (54:58.734)
You’re right, exactly.

Okay, awesome. I love these stories and I feel like that’s where it comes back to. Like that’s what we’re, you know, it all comes back around to these stories and the connection and that emotional connection as opposed to being intrusive and interrupting. And that’s where you start. And definitely take a look at all of that. Take a look at all of that. But then also you were talking about…

Take a few minutes and see where you can do that on social media and put those stories out there and use that as the starting point. I think that’s really a great idea.

Reid (55:36.601)
Yeah, I think it’s worth doing. know, there’s a, there’s a saying is the day you need a community is not the day to start one, you know? So, I mean, or the old saying, you know, you know, or the, day you need a shade from a tree is not the day to plant the seed or something like that. You know, it’s, it’s the same kind of basic thing. know, people.

Karin Conroy (55:43.566)
Yes, exactly.

Karin Conroy (55:53.524)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That’s such, that is just the basic approach with marketing though, is everybody wants this golden ticket. And we even talked briefly about how the conversation right now in marketing is AI and SEO, you know, and that is everybody thinks it’s this shortcut to everything and that you, you know, can start a business today and have, but this is the same thing people said at the beginning of the internet. And at the end of the day,

Marketing is marketing. And yes, there’s some tools out here and then we can do things a little bit faster with AI. But at the end of the day, it takes years to build a brand and the reputation and, you know, get these things out there. And that’s, that’s not going to change. We’re humans. That’s just how humans work.

Reid (56:39.941)
Well, and the other point is that the days of being able to buy someone else’s audience, and have the people watching it care about what you’re saying are kind of atrophying. They’re not, they’re not as effective as they used to be. You need to find reasons for people to care about you. And, that’s the beauty of these social media things is that people are looking for reasons to be entertained and get, you know, get the story. Yeah, exactly.

Karin Conroy (56:53.132)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (57:06.766)
and get the story. Yes. Yeah. All of the ones that I follow for the most part have a very compelling and very unique story where I could summarize it in a sentence or a sentence and a half. And that’s, that’s, know, what you should be aiming for. Read Homes is a marketing therapist and his brand is House of Homes. We will link to everything on the show page with the show notes in the transcript, all of that good stuff, including the book.

Reid (57:15.536)
Mm-hmm.

Reid (57:22.661)
Yep. Yep.

Karin Conroy (57:35.714)
which was the Untethered Soul. We’ll have that on the show page as well. Thank you so much for being here. That was such a fun conversation.

Reid (57:41.765)
Thank you, I enjoyed it too. And you can go to readholmes.com, you can get a free chapter of my book. You can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out every Friday, and it’s called Oxygen, and it’s meant to be uplifting and not a chore, value driven. And yeah, so there’s that. And if you need any help, I have a thing called the appreciation model, if anybody needs help, or if I can help with you,

Karin Conroy (57:47.177)
awesome.

Karin Conroy (57:55.88)
Value driven.

Karin Conroy (58:07.862)
Yeah, awesome. We will link to all of that stuff, your brand, your link, your website, and your book, Appreciate Branding, as well. Thank you so much.

Reid (58:16.314)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Karin.