The Key to Lawyer Influence: A Guide to Essential Presentation Skills with Juanita Wheeler

I’m Juanita Wheeler, a Presentation, Pitching and Speaker Coach. Stay tuned to find out how to be a great persuasive speaker as a lawyer.

Juanita, I am so excited about this one. Thank you for being here to begin with. I really appreciate you taking the time from Australia to meet with me at about 5:00 in the morning your time. We’re going to make this good and worth your time and all that extra effort. I appreciate that, and thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. You are very welcome.

Speaking of things within your control, we’re going to talk about public speaking influence and presentation skills. In your intro, you didn’t mention that you’re the CEO of TEDx Brisbane and I feel like that’s the thing that will ring familiar with some people who are reading. I think there’s a really cool approach that TED uses in their talks, which I feel we can dig into.

Different Kinds Of Public Speaking

The title for this episode is The Key to Lawyer Influence: A Guide to Essential Presentation Skills. Let’s first talk about something that you mentioned when we were first chatting, the different kinds of public speaking and presentations that a person or lawyer might need to make. I think initially, everyone’s picturing, like I am, the TED stage, like the single definition of public speaking, up on a stage, a big screen behind them and whatever, but there are a million different variations of what we’re talking about. Let’s first start there. What examples do you have?

The first thing I say to people, and it’s usually after they say, “Public speaking, I can never do that. Glossophobia, which is the technical term for fear of public speaking, experts say that it can affect up to 75% of the population. Obviously that ranges from, “I’m a little bit more nervous than I should be,” right up to abject panic and cannot do it.

“I can’t even stand on my two legs.”

People will be, “I could never public speak.” The thing I say to them is, “If you leave your house and you speak in public, then you are already public speaking. You are doing it every day, so let’s just put the fear of that aside. We can work on that. There are things we can do, and actually, let’s learn how to do it well because you’re doing it, whether you like the idea or not. Let’s just learn how to do it well.” The first thing, if you are speaking in public, you are already public speaking.

Even if it’s like to the grocery store people or whatever.

Yes, absolutely, but there are so many forms as you said. Yes, the TED stage is absolutely one, but it’s one very specific form of public speaking and you should have that toolkit in your bag. It’s an important one for you as a professional, as somebody who takes themselves seriously, as somebody who wants to have a positive career trajectory. That’s essential. You need that tool in your tool bag.

The other forms of public speaking are speaking persuasively to your boss. Promoting yourself in negotiations for pay rises or new jobs. If you are sitting in a meeting with partners or members of your firm and you have to advocate for your idea internally, that is a different form of public speaking. Not only talking but also having your voice heard and knowing how to do that. Otherwise, you’re just flapping your gums. There is a very big difference between talking and persuasive speaking where people hear it and then say, “Yes.” That’s my jam. That’s what I’m all about.

Being Heard

I saw this on your website and that just called to me, this idea of having your voice heard. I want to keep coming back to this because there is such a huge difference between listening and hearing and speaking and being heard. This is where I think a lot of messaging, marketing and positioning is where we usually start with clients and where we talk about not just the message, but first, the strategy behind the message. The goal there obviously is to be heard, but to be heard from someone where you’re meeting what they need in order to be heard.

What’s the difference and how do you first approach that idea of being heard as opposed to, let’s just assume we’re talking to someone who’s an attorney and something’s not working and you and I have determined it’s either a messaging problem or like their overall approach in the way they’re speaking. What would the first thing you would talk to them about be in terms of how to adjust that in order to be heard?

It’s a great question and a lot of times when people come to me, their first port of call is, “I’m not doing something right in my presentation style.” They’ll think, “It’s about my vocal modulation or maybe I should do something more compelling with my hands.” I’m like, “Okay.”

“I need a new suit. I just need a new haircut.”

One of my favorites, which is totally wrong, is “I’m saying ums and ahs too many times. Can you stop me doing that?” First of all, you need to know that is very superficial. What we actually have to look at, and you alluded to it, is what are you trying to achieve? The first thing I will say is, “Stop talking. Stop flapping your gums until you know exactly why you’re speaking. I don’t just want you to be heard. That’s essential. I want you to know what action you want them to take.” If they are just flapping their gums and they hear you but they take no action, I’m not the slightest bit interested in that. That’s all very nice. That’s wedding toast stuff. “I enjoyed that. Thank you for your contribution.”

Stop flapping your gums until you know why you are speaking. Share on X

I’m interested in what action do you want them to take the minute you stop speaking or as soon as they walk out of that room and they get to their computer or their phone or their assistant, what do you want them to do? I say to all the people I coach, particularly those I coach who are trying to elevate the career trajectory or have some very clear professional goals that they’re looking at, maybe not now, but maybe in the future. They understand it’s never too early to start personal branding. If I want to get to that thing, I need to start now. I’ll talk to them and say, “What do you want?” They’ll say, “I’ve got a meeting coming up. This thing has not been going well and I really need to turn them around. I need people to hear me that there is a better solution and this is it.”

We’ll sit down and go, “First of all, before you open your mouth, what do you want them to do when you finish talking? What is the action? A behavioral change.” Sometimes, people will say, “I want to raise awareness about this.” I’m like, “You are prohibited forever from using the word awareness. Awareness gets you nothing. Don’t ever use that in my presence again.” I usually will talk to them about skin cancer because everyone gets it. I’m like, “I can be as aware out the wazoo about skin cancer and not do a single bit of behavioral change. Awareness gets you nothing. What do you actually want? Do you want me to slip slop and slap sunscreen hat when I leave the house?”

Is that an Australian thing? I’ve never heard that before. That’s amazing.

It was a public PSA in the ‘70s before I was born. Slip on a shirt, slap on sunscreen and slap on a hat. It was drilled into us from school.

That’s a first for me.

There you go. Slip, slap, slap. Now you’re in the know.

I got it. I will not forget that. That’s amazing. Okay, I’m sorry to interrupt.

You’re fine. You always have to pick me up on the Australianism. I’m like, “Skin cancer, do you want me to slip, slop, slap? Do you also want me to check my moles and my skin once a month for ten minutes? That’s a behavioral change. Do you want me to go see a doctor once every twelve months because we’re in Australia and it’s skin cancer capital of the world?” These are the things you want. They’re all specific actions. Let’s write that down. That’s actually tangible. That’s specific goals. You’re going to move forward. You’re going to make progress as opposed to I just want to raise awareness about this issue. We don’t do that. We came to play. We’re serious people.

12 Words

Let’s use two examples like either the website or like we’re getting up maybe at an event and doing a talk because I feel like these are the two things that are probably most present in a lawyer’s mind and actually probably not the website in terms of that’s more me. What kind of actual action that’s not just like the raise awareness thing would you be looking for in each of those examples?

If I had the opportunity, if I was a lawyer or an attorney and I had the opportunity to go and speak let’s say at a fundraiser or an event or at an industry event. Beforehand, I would sit down and go, “Great, what are my immediate objectives and what are my long-term objectives for my career?” I would say, “I want to own the space about international law as it relates to children’s rights.” You pick whatever area of rocks your world. Regardless of what they asked me to speak on, I’ll speak on that, but I’m going to make sure how I can weave in as my examples or anecdotes the area that I am passionate about. I am going to work on how to get my core idea. The equivalent of if you were giving a TED Talk, what is your great idea?

If you don’t have it yet, great, but let’s get working on that. What is that in twelve words or less? You can clearly articulate it. You’re going to make sure that that is littered into your talk so that you are already establishing it for that audience. If these are peak industry peers, people of influence who are going to potentially help you in your career or help make you connections in the future that they start associating with that area of interest, which is where you want to go.

Every time you speak in public, you should be working to advance towards that objective. It’s not raising awareness that I exist or about the topic. Goodness knows that topic could be incredibly important, but let’s make sure we tick multiple boxes. You are doing good for the cause. You are also doing good for whomever has invited you to speak on that stage. You’re making sure that you’re ticking their boxes, that people have a great time, or that you mention their cause. Whatever you need to do, make sure you are also ticking your boxes in terms of advancing.

Even though you are ticking the boxes of the person who has invited you to speak, make sure you are ticking your own boxes as well. Share on X

Addressing Different Audiences

Should it always be coming back to those 12 words that you mentioned like you’ve got this mantra in your head that’s 12 words or less that’s always being mentioned at every event, every thing?

Absolutely. In some form, once you work out what you want to do. Some of my clients and the people I’ve coached to are lawyers, some of them are will say, “I just think I’m going to be in firms forever. One day, I would like to be a name partner.” I’m like, “What area of law do you want to then make sure that you own? What part of the store do you want to be the go-to expert for?” Whether that’s family law or mergers and acquisitions, whatever it is, I’m like, “Great, what is the thing you were going to bring your insight to in your area of specialty? Let’s get that into twelve words or less and make it almost like a catchphrase.

When people say, “Do you know XYZ?” “Yes. She’s the person who,” and if you’ve done your job well, they will then be able to recite the twelve words or less. They will know you as that thing. It’s never too late, early to start. You also need to remember it’s like a T-shirt. If you outgrow your twelve words or less, if it no longer fits you well, if it’s not fashionable anymore, if you don’t like it, you can change your shirt. You can absolutely change your twelve words or less. It is not a stone template.

Speaking of that, we were talking earlier about you’ve got these twelve words or less, but in different scenarios, we’re going to be speaking in a different way to different audiences. I’m going to give you a couple of examples. If we’re at an industry event, speaking on our website, having a phone call from a potential client, or maybe sitting down face-to-face with a potential client, those are three super different audiences.

With those twelve words in mind, so you’ve got your mantra and whatever, how do you then address each of them differently to once again have the voice heard? I’m just going to keep coming back to that because I feel like that is such a key core thing that we need to remember about this episode, this idea of being heard.

I love it. First of all, those examples you’ve picked are great. I’ll start with the last one first because I think it’s the most powerful. If you’re sitting down with a client, the first thing I’ll say is, “If you have done your job well, then the client will be walking in because they’re coming to you because of your twelve words or less. They know what you are excited about, what you are regarded now as the thought leader and expert on and that is why they have come to your office.”

Your work there is done when they walk in the door. To some extent, you just need to confirm that. When you do it well, you attract the right clients. You attract people who want to work with you because they know what you are passionate about. That is the goal, that you are not out there chasing them or you are working with clients on topics that do not rock your world because you’ve done this so well that you are the go-to person for that.

I’ve seen this myself over and over. I’ve had this agency for fifteen-plus years, and this is actually a great example of having a different T-shirt. In the beginning, I started out writing like really compelling blog posts about marketing on a popular blog and this was like a classic blog back in the day. Blogs have all changed since. Back in the day, I was talking about marketing and it was specifically aimed to lawyers. I had ads on that blog that were all about starting in under $1,000 and it was all price-based and it was all, “Get in. I’ve got your low-cost option. Just pull in this vast network of new clients.” This wasn’t the wrong angle. At the time, this was the right angle for someone who was starting out.

As time went on, that wasn’t the right client for me anymore. It was a very money-focused, value not perceived and nitpicky problematic client. Let’s just say it that way. I had to change my T-shirt like you were describing. It’s a painful process because all of a sudden, your numbers change. All of a sudden, I’m not getting those low penny pinchers and it looks like something’s not going right, but it is. The difference is I’m not putting a chart on my website with different packages that have dollar signs on them. It’s totally different. Their availability to get to me changed, and over time, that changed. Once I saw that change and we went through all that work to reposition and whatever, all of a sudden, the flow of the type of client was amazing, and they would say things just like you were describing.

In that first call, they would be like, “I have been following you for ages. I’ve listened to your podcast. I have seen your website.” They would start quoting things, “I need this,” and it would be like words for my website. It was like this amazing experience, but this is when you know that you’re doing it right. I’m sorry for getting up on my soapbox, but I’ve seen this and I’ve experienced all of that. Let me let you get back to what you were describing. I apologize for jumping in there.

No, I think it’s fine. I think it’s really important. I’ve changed my T-shirt as well. I spent twenty years doing strategic planning, strategic market development, and negotiating mergers and acquisitions. I’m very good at it, if I say so myself, but it was no longer filling my life with joy. The part of my work that I loved was after realizing it didn’t matter what amazing plan I put together and what strategy.

If the person couldn’t get up and stage and sell it either to their team, to their boss, to partners, to entire organizations, then it didn’t matter how good it was on paper, you need to be able to sell it and champion your ideas. If you care about your ideas, you need to be prepared to step up and champion them persuasively and invest the time and effort to learn how to do that based on persuasion theories and neuroscience and all the smart stuff.

One other thing I just want to add in really quickly that I loved from your site is we’re talking about you getting a yes on whatever your idea is. You say this on the front page of your website. This is very broad and this is about human psychology and interaction and trying to get to that yes on whatever. Whatever it is you’re talking about. Whatever idea, whatever court case, whatever you’re in front of a judge, if you are talking about your marketing. Before I interrupted on that whole story of my life, we were talking about the different kinds of audiences and how to be better heard and persuasive to get to that yes where it’s so compelling.

We talked about how you’re getting the right clients coming to the room. The other example you mentioned was on the website. If you are at the point where you’ve said, “Okay, this is what I’m going to focus on. This is what I want to own this part of the store. I want to be an expert and a thought leader in this space.” On your website, first of all, in addition to your general services, you will have dedicated landing pages that is easy to access from your homepage that will talk about that one niche area of specialty. You’ll talk about why you are passionate about it, why you are fantastic at it. This is not a time to be shy about that by the way. You are awesome. Own it.

If you can’t, you need to hire someone that will own it for you and put those words together because a lot of people just can’t. Let’s just own that part. I had to own that. I have amazing content writers who say things in a way where I’m like, “That is so much better than I would’ve ever said about it. This is amazing.” Let’s step back from that, too. You don’t have to possess this. There’s no ego involved in you getting it done the way it needs to be done, whether it’s you or someone else.

Absolutely. Can I say that don’t feel bad if you’re not a marketer if you are a lawyer because marketers are terrible at marketing themselves. I was the director of global market development. I have 3 Master’s degrees including 2 in Business and I need somebody else to write my stuff because I will downplay. I will be like, “Be smaller. Take up less space. Don’t be bossy.”

Someone needs to come in and go, “Honey, you got 3 Master’s degrees and 20 years of experience and you’ve coached over 100 TEDx speakers. Maybe we should speak about this on the homepage.” Yes, get an expert. I say the same thing. I often talk about plumbing, and I’ll say, “Public speaking and marketing are skills like being a plumber or being a lawyer. If you need a lawyer, don’t do it yourself. Go to a lawyer. If you need a plumber to plumb your house, don’t go get a plumber.”

For all the same reasons you, as a lawyer, are telling your clients not to do it yourself, the same thing applies to you. Apply that to your business. For all the same reasons that you were saying to your clients, “If you have a DUI or you’re going through a divorce, the worst thing you can do is do it yourself.” Let’s take that concept. You’ve already got it in your head, and you’re saying it to other people. Now, just flip it around on yourself.

Don’t confuse my Law degree with Google. Don’t confuse your marketing experience with my 20 years of public speaking experience and 3 Master’s degrees with Google or ChatGPT. That’s a whole episode unto itself. ChatGPT is great for giving you suggestions at the high level of what things might I cover in this as bullet point topics. Do not let it write your words. It’s so much important part of your personal brand. That’s what you’re talking about establishing here. Whether it’s to attract clients or to have your future career trajectory, all of that should be in your words; it should be authentically you. Don’t hand that over to a computer. It should be you. Own it.

Being Persuasive

I love that and I did want to throw one little mention of AI just because it’s the topic, but I did want to throw in ChatGPT at some point. I’m glad I got to check that box. We covered that. What does it mean to be persuasive? What and how? How do we do that and what is it?

I love that you mentioned about getting to yes. Being persuasive means somebody says yes. When I say at the beginning and we were talking about what’s your strategic objective for this meeting, this speech or this meeting with your boss or your website, prospective clients. Anytime for me you’re speaking usually vocally, but it could be on your website, what is your strategic objective? If I can’t answer yes or someone can’t answer yes to what your strategic objective is, as far as I’m concerned, it’s not a strategic objective.

If you or someone else cannot answer “yes” to what your strategic objective is, it is not a strategic objective. Share on X

Is it that you are saying, “Let’s go big. I want you to change this piece of legislation. I want you to lobby to change this piece of legislation. Will you do it?” “Yes.” That’s a strategic objective. “I want you to take me on as a client. I want us to do a merger deal and merge our firms. “Yes.” Whatever it is there needs to be, it needs to involve behavioral change in action. That’s the first step.

Persuasion is making somebody say yes who, at the start of a meeting, possibly doesn’t want to. They don’t know anything about what you are going to pitch to them or maybe sometimes they are diametrically opposed to it and you’ve got to turn them around. That’s what persuasion is about. The key to persuasion, there’s a lot of work that goes into persuasion. Many books, many years of study and the neuroeconomics, the science of decision making. If I had to condense it, I would say the key to persuasion is understanding, first of all, what is the yes question?

What is the strategic objective that involves them saying yes at the end because that’s the first point? Otherwise, how do you know if it’s a success or not? One clear yes. Not 27 but 1 for each meeting or each session. The second thing is understand where are they currently. Where do you think they currently are? We’re going to call that point A. Point B is getting them to the point where they say yes. What do they need to hear? Not what you think is sexy, exciting, interesting or verbose about yourself.

The fact that you went to a certain law school or whatever. Please stop.

I just say the only time you would ever mention that if you knew that the person you were speaking to prized that above all other things. If that Is like their life, that is where they went to school, everybody they hire in their firm is from there, if that is their be-all and end-all or you get on a Zoom call with them and there’s like merch from the thing, I’m like, “Cool. I’m totally going to drop that.” Seriously, it’s happened.

It’s just I had such a visual of that, like horns from whatever that school in Texas. That hit me so funny. That’s hilarious.

It stuck with me since I saw it in real life. The point is, what will get that person from A to B? I sit before a meeting with somebody and I’ll write down a list of every objection I think they would have to my idea. I’ll put that in a column and then I’ll put immediately next to it what are the answers to that. Before they can even get that out of their mouth or into their mind that’s a problem, I’m going to make sure I address these things. It’s unlike mentally ticking them off. It would be almost embarrassing for them to raise one of them.

“I totally understand this is a really common misconception. I’m dealing with all these other people, but I know you would get it because you’re in the industry, and you know that’s not how it works,” and all these things elevate them. Address every possible objection you can think of prior to them actually getting the point. What’s important to them? To give you an example, I had to pitch a professional development thing. I go into companies. They bring me in to teach them how to be better communicators for internally or externally. This one was about increasing women’s voices being heard in their particular organization.

It was a guy that brought me in, too. I love that some of the best feminists I know are men. It like we need to elevate women in the organization like superb. He goes, “I need you to sell it to this person who’s head of professional development and this person who’s the CFO.” I had to do it in two separate meetings, which was ideal for me. When that happens it’s the best thing ever. If they’re two totally different types of people, you would say, “Of course I can do that.”

The pitch to the professional development woman, she was very in favor of ensuring women’s equality. I had lovingly, lightly and not illegally at all stalked her on LinkedIn and found out all the things she was passionate about because I do my work. I’m going to persuade her. I have to take her from A to B. What does she need to hear? She just needed to hear all the things about the gender differential, the pay inequity, all of those things. I totally nailed that one. She’s like, “Of course, yes.” I went to the one for the same deal and pitched to the CFO and that was all about the cost of retention, the cost of retraining people.

It’s a totally different presentation.

It was 100%. You wouldn’t have known it was for the same thing. It’s because that’s what that person needed to hear to get him from A to B. He was the bean counter. He just cared about money. I looked at some of the things he had done, some of the places he had spoken, all of his accounting details. He just wanted to hear, “This is going to save money and it’s going to save drama and it’s going to increase efficiency,” which I could absolutely prove with completely different stats. Two entirely different presentations.

That presentation did not have big smiley faces of people in the workplace. This one did. This one was like, “Here are the spreadsheets, here are the numbers, here are big graphs. This is why these are your numbers.” I got a yes from both, entirely different presentations because when you are talking about persuasive speaking, it’s not about you. It’s not about what you think is interesting.

Let me just go back because I want to enforce this really major point here. When we are talking about persuasion and messaging and all of this, you’re talking about how it’s not about you. It’s not about trying to convey this idea. What is it?

I think it’s such a vital point, and it’s one of the first things I say to all my speakers, particularly to people who are nervous. It’s like public speaking is not about you. It’s about the people you’re speaking to. It’s about what they need to hear to get them to yes, to have them understand and be persuaded by you. That’s all about them and it’s not about you. I always apologize. I say, “I’m sorry to the narcissists in the room, but public speaking, not about you. Certainly not persuasive speaking. Wedding toast, sure, but persuasive speaking, not about you.”

In the instance of those two very different presentations, one to the head of professional development and one to the CFO, those presentations were entirely different. They weren’t about me. They weren’t about the deciding things that I wanted to talk to them about. It was about what does that person need to hear to get them to say yes.

In the case of this person, she needed to hear that it aligned with her values, her objectives, her kpis that had to do with elevating the voices of women, making sure that they had better gender equality in their organization at all levels of the organization and not just in accounting and admin. His KPIs and the things he was concerned about and passionate about and the things that his value spoke to was dollars and graphs. How do I reduce the cost of employment, retention, recruitment, training and increase our efficiencies? It was not about what I wanted to tell them at all. It was all about them.

Market Research

Let me just underline that because what you’re describing is market research and defining your client profile or sometimes people call it like your user. People use the word journey a lot when they get to this stuff. Let’s just say market research because I feel like that sounds better. Even when you were talking about how you were stocking them on LinkedIn, market research.

You know you’re going in to speak to these two people and without doing that research, you would’ve thrown together some generic thing, slapped us together, showed up and said probably the same thing to each of them, thinking, “This is the truth. This is what I am trying to say.” Without that fine-tuning of the message to each of their needs and wants, this is what we’re talking about when it comes to being persuasive and understanding what they want as opposed to just what you think you want to say.

In our cases, when we sit down and we’re doing a whole strategy and putting that stuff together, figuring out the positioning, a lot of times the outcome of that is a message. To figure out that message, it’s a lot of research and talking about who your clients are, what they have said about you in the past. It’s the equivalent of the LinkedIn research that you are doing to figure out like, “Let me know about these people.”

You should be looking into who are your clients, what have they said about you in the past, why did they find you in the past and then hire you. What do they want? What do they care about? You know this when they first come in and meet with you. You know exactly the first couple of things that they say to you all the time, over and over. This is where we’re going to position it and fine tune it to speak to that.

I would say in addition to all of that, which I agree with, if you’re going home at night and thinking, “These are not the cases I want to be working on. These clients are not rocking my world, this is not where I want to be working. This is not why I got into law or this is not what I want to be doing in five years,” great. Write down what you do want to be working on and then say, “What do I have to do to position myself as the go-to person for that, as an expert in that?” Some of that might be, “I need to go and get a couple of extra credentials.”

Also, it could be, “I just need to start speaking about this. I need to subscribe to Google Alerts for every possible update on this topic. If something happens in this space, I know. I need to speak about it,” because it doesn’t matter what you get in your head; you are not out there letting people know that. In team meetings, in staff meetings, in elevator conversations with the name partners, whoever it is, you need to let them know that you know this. You need to get yourself out there and start speaking. What are the peak industry bodies or organizations, nonprofits that government entities that are involved in this space? You need to start speaking at their events so they understand you are a player in this space.

What you’re describing sounds like a ton of work because it is. I came home last night and I’m miserable and my life is suffering because I’m not on the path that I expected.” Maybe the answer is, you know what that path is. You need to at least have some concept of what it is you want it to be and but you don’t know how to get there. Maybe you need to be realistic about the fact that you need help getting there.

Let’s just say, “Okay, that sounds like a lot of work. I don’t know how to get those speaking gigs. I don’t know how to do all that writing. I don’t know how to define where those clients are. Put ads in front of them. I don’t know how to write the website, do the website, do the social media.” Let’s just go find the right person to help you with that, which is going to get you there faster and probably at a much higher rate of success.

Absolutely, you’re going to be more successful. The other thing is, I’m not a fan of work when it’s not required. Don’t make things harder than they need to be.

I do not change my own oil in my car. Why would I do that?

I don’t represent myself in court ever. I’m not drafting my own legal contracts. Go in and get somebody because it’s far less work If you have the right person and the expert helping you. The exact same thing that you would feel about your clients, do it once, do it well, get help from an expert and we’re going to make this as short, swift and painless as possible for them. That’s exactly what you and I do for our clients.

One thing that you were talking about earlier was the objections and the questions people ask. I just wanted to add one note about that. That should be on your website in terms of the frequently asked questions. That is the point of frequently asked questions. Google wants that and so do your clients. The frequently asked questions, it’s not for anything else. That’s what it’s for. It’s for overcoming these objections. Once you’ve got that, write it down, send it to your webmaster, and have them throw it on the website as well.

Trust And Influence

The other thing I wanted to come back and tie in, and I feel like it’s been an underlying idea that we’ve been talking about, is trust. Trust combined with influence. How is that different and how does that tie into the idea of getting to that yes or how do you build that foundation in order to help with the influence and getting to the yes?

It was something that I had to deal with when I left corporate years ago and decided to go out on my own. One of the big questions we had when we were discussing, for example, how to brand my company was how do you build this trust if you’ve not been out and you’re just going out and establishing yourself for the first time outside of corporate world where you are part of a big juggernaut? We said, “Let’s be authentically us. Let’s be what are we and what am I?” We said, “You are authoritative, you are sincere and you are blunt. These are the three guiding principles.”

If I am always those things and I’m authentically me, first of all, that will build trust. Whatever it is, you are going to own your part of the story. You want to be authoritative. You need to make sure that you are. Whatever you need to do, that will build trust. If this is something that needs to be known, she or he will know it. That is how you do it. They won’t know what’s in your head unless you are speaking about it, writing about it, or having it on your website. You need to make sure that you are commentating on things that are topical and in the news, so they know if something’s happening in this space, that person will know about it. That builds trust.

Whatever it is you are doing, own part of your story. You want to be the authority to do it. Share on X

In terms of being sincere, that was my second one for our brand. Do what you say and say what you do. If I tell you you need to know something or you don’t need to know something, I always say to my clients, “I will teach you everything you need to know and nothing that you don’t. If I’m not telling you, you need to know something, you don’t need to know it. You don’t need to google it. Don’t listen to your aunt’s best friend’s brother’s boyfriend who tells you that you need to do something dramatic with your arms on stage. Please ignore that. That’s from your Year 12 speech and drama class or glee club. Okay, let’s just put a pin in that.

All of a sudden, people are like twirling around.

I come to rehearsals and I’m like, “Do that again and you will not walk onto my stage and I am not kidding.”

I’m picturing a giant hook.

Yeah, no. I’m like, “Seriously, you won’t walk on stage.” They know I’m serious. They can tell by my face. That’s mine. Live up to whatever your brand is. Be that. One of mine is sincere. I will absolutely tell you what you need to know. I want you to succeed. People’s success is the reason I do what I do. That’s how I am contributing to the world. I am not a top surgeon or a top human rights lawyer. I’m none of those things. What I am is helping all of these people who have brilliant ideas to champion them to the world.

Every time they go out and something happens because they have spoken about it, they’ve presented well, they’ve had the confidence to get up and champion it and they have wins, I help make that happen. That’s how I contribute to the world. That builds trust. Whatever you are, however you deliver your services, that’s part of your brand. How people feel. Mine is comprehensive but blunt. I will be very blunt and that in itself builds trust. People know I will be blunt. I’m not going to tell them on namby pamby. There’s not going to be this. I don’t have that tool in my toolbox.

That’s why we get along, I feel like. I tell people from the beginning, they’re like, “If we are making bad decisions, you need to tell us.” I’m like, “I don’t have it within me to not tell you I’ll tell you. You’ll know for sure that I don’t agree. I will also tell you why. It’s not just like I’m having a bad day, but I just have a bad feeling about it. I will say the reason that this is not the right decision is X, Y, Z. You get to make the decision because this is your business and your law firm and your decision but you will know full well that I am not on board with it.”

Part of that trust factor is that I will never just tell you yes or no to something. I’ll explain why, and as you said, that also is providing them with power, agency and knowledge for the future. They don’t have to call you every time. There’s a growing pool of knowledge they have. They will call you in for the new big things. The important things. The critical things. You’re constantly helping them develop skills and knowledge so they can do the everyday business as usual things without needing to have you on the end of the phone, which is a huge win for them. All of that is trust.

Thought Leaders’ Library

I love that trust and influence. All of these things are critical parts when you’re doing any kind of public speaking presentation. All the things that fall under this broad umbrella of just communication. It is now time for the Thought Leaders’ Library. We have a book review section of every episode where the guests provide suggestion for a book that you think should be on everyone’s bookshelf. Juanita, what is the one that you think all the lawyers should be paying attention to? What’s the book that you like?

This is the book that I think every lawyer should have on their bookshelf if they don’t already have it. Assuming that you don’t all want to go and nerd out and spend ten years reading about the neuroeconomics of persuasion theories, it’s this one. It’s called Hidden Persuasion and it is fantastic.

That’s such a cool cover.

I know the actual whole book is really fantastic too. Bite sized chunks of Persuasion Theory. It’ll go through and introduce you to some of the many persuasion theories. It will tell you the theory behind it. It will give some context and explain how it works. It’s a really lovely coffee table bite-sized book that you can bring.

I feel like that is a beautiful marriage, persuasion between marketing and being a lawyer, too. This whole idea of we have these things that we need to say and want people, like you said earlier and on your website, we need a yes, whatever that is. If it’s a yes on a jury vote, a marketing yes for a potential client, or a yes to whatever you’re speaking about in whatever it is, that’s the goal. Marketing will get you there and this idea of persuasion and these theories will help you understand how to do it better.

It’s very cool and a great book, by the way. You’ll start using it for law and for your legal work and also your business and but before you know it, parenting. The parents are out there, you’re just going to go, “This is gold.” I have three adult sons. Yes, it’s absolutely gold.

I will tell you that in the reverse, all of the parenting books that I read, I use in business all the time speaking to my clients. Either way, it goes both ways. Business books apply to parenting, parenting books apply to business and it’s just about human interaction and psychology and how to do it better in a way that works.

A good persuasion theory will apply in all aspects of your life. That’s how you know it’s a good one.

Biggest Mistake

Speaking of what works, first, let’s talk about what you think everyone gets wrong about this and then what your thoughts on a solution to that potential mistake or misstep would be.

I think we’ve talked about it a little already, which is the biggest mistake that all public speakers or a lot of people that I engage with do, which is that they think public speaking is about them. They think it’s about, “I’m going to get up on a stage or at a work presentation or pitching to my boss for a pay rise. I’m going to talk about the things I want to talk about, why it’s important to me, why I think someone should do things, and why this is interesting or sexy or exciting.”

They’ll spend all this time thinking about, “Cool. I’ve got this great idea,” and that’s what they’ll focus on and that’s how they perceive public speaking. That is an enormous mistake if you are in any form of public speaking, but particularly if you are looking to be involved in strategic persuasive speaking, which gets somebody to yes because it’s not about you.

The solution is know who you are speaking to and make sure that you know what their starting point is like, “I think this is where they are,” their point A. Your point B is you got to get them to yes. Have that really clear strategic goal of what they’re saying yes to so they know what it is and you know what it is. Make sure everything that you include in what you say, you are not flapping your gums. There’s no tangential staff. There’s no waffle. It’s 100% what that person needs to hear to say yes.

Know the people you are speaking to. Make sure you know their starting point. Share on X

It’s so important and true and I feel like you laid that out in such a succinct way. The result is that it’s, all of a sudden, so easy. You’ve got everything set up so well and you’re getting quality people who all of a sudden, you’re like, “I haven’t had a single conversation with someone where I walked away wanting to bang my head against a wall.” That was probably for both of us. I know for me for sure in the first few years, when I had the other T-shirt on, it was regularly like, “Why is this so difficult? I’m going to write a blog post about this and I’m going to change the world with my blog post.” No. That’s not the way to do it. Take from my experience. That’s not how it’s going to work.

It’s called venting. Stick it in a journal and never share it anywhere.

Episode Wrap-Up

There are some examples that I’ll use in these episodes or when I’m talking to other people, but just as examples of what you were describing of what people get wrong or mistakes or whatever. I keep it all quiet about who that was and when that was and all that stuff. That’s not what works. That’s not going to be the approach that gets you where you want to be in life, in your career or whatever it is that you’re trying to accomplish. I think that’s so true. I love that succinct finale of how it works and how to make it work better. Juanita Wheeler is the Founder of Full & Frank and also the CEO of TEDx Brisbane. Thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation. Thank you for being here.

You are very welcome. It was lovely talking to you.

Important Links

• Juanita Wheeler
• Hidden Persuasion