What If Law Firms Marketed Like They Were Raising $10M? with Jason Fishman

Jason Fishman (00:01.378)
Hello, my name is Jason Fishman. I’m a marketer, been doing this for over 15 years, started an agency called DNA. We actually focus on investor and user acquisition. We raise hundreds of millions of dollars through these digital marketing tools. I’ve had clients in a full spectrum of different verticals, including legal plaintiff and defense side, gonna be able to speak with you about SEO, gonna be able to talk about lead generation traffic, but really focusing on how do you go after

a premium audience. What do do to stand out from other opportunities and how do you measure the results and scale them at the end of the day?

Karin Conroy (00:37.794)
Awesome. Jason, thank you for being here. I think this is going to be a really interesting conversation because it’s not necessarily where lawyers heads are at when they’re first starting to think about marketing. I would say the majority of my initial calls start with, well, we’re not really doing marketing. We get all our business through referrals, which I’ve said this over and over. so if people have listened for a while, it’s still marketing. You’re just not doing it very well.

But, or it’s some version of they think that, you know, they should have a billboard or they should, you know, do some of these traditional methods that, or SEO is sort of this golden ticket that they’re missing out on and they don’t quite get it. And it might be a little bit of snake oil and they’re not feeling totally sure about it, but this is a different approach. This is more like, let’s look at your business.

Your law firm is a business. Let’s look at it in terms of if you were marketing like you were trying to raise $10 million. So that’s actually the title of the show. It’s going to be what if law firms marketed like they were raising $10 million. So I feel like this is a kind of interesting sort of little brain puzzle. So let’s first start. First, tell us about like your, you know, I hate the word journey, but let’s talk about like your journey from like.

ads and the backend and the tech side of ads and marketing to where you are now and kind of the things that you kind of realized along the way.

Jason Fishman (02:11.598)
Yeah. Yeah. So before this, I was at a mobile advertising network where we were able to drive traffic from very specific audiences to a whole array of different industries, budget levels, timelines, know, fortune 500s, top 100 advertisers got a good feeling for what worked, what didn’t work in terms of traffic management and audience acquisition. Uh, wanted to please.

Karin Conroy (02:17.239)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (02:38.198)
Okay, so was that mostly like, I’m sorry to interrupt, but when you say mobile ads, is that more like Google ads or pay-per-click type things or what kind of, what was the main platform that you were using in that agency?

Jason Fishman (02:53.088)
It’s an interesting answer. So we were exclusively representing full screen advertisements on mobile and tablet devices inside apps for digital magazines. 1500 print publishers were working with us. We were creating their digital editions and there’d be these interstitials, these full screen interactive ads inside Condé Nast, Hearst.

Karin Conroy (03:06.348)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (03:12.961)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (03:18.592)
Okay. Okay.

Jason Fishman (03:19.886)
publications, we’re talking 2012, 2014, around then, but early days of tablet at that.

Karin Conroy (03:23.521)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (03:28.108)
Yeah, well, and it was a different world. And I want to talk a little bit about how things have changed too, because I don’t feel like that is like that, that approach would be really different these days. right. So, okay. So you’re doing these kinds of ads, these traditional ads that kind of were built on a similar sort of idea as print ads and print media and print marketing from like

Jason Fishman (03:32.77)
Please.

Karin Conroy (03:53.538)
the yesteryear, right? Like the olden days of marketing and advertising. So, okay, so then you started getting into where you’re at now, right? Okay.

Jason Fishman (04:04.822)
Yeah. Yeah. So, and a lot of those ads were built around app installs. I’d have to speak to print buyers at times. And like you said, more traditional media conversations started the agency so I could work with startup to mid market businesses. Exciting for me being part of the LA tech community. So started DNA. I quickly found that capital raising was a common part of the discussion and we were regularly being asked to work on the marketing section of the business plan, pitch deck.

Karin Conroy (04:12.961)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (04:33.646)
Hey, let’s run this first campaign. Once it’s successful, we’re going to present it to our investors, our finance partners, and they’re going to scale it with more capital, even being asked to participate in those meetings. So then I learned about new laws going into effect. First around Reg D 506C, allowing for solicitation of accredited investors, was able to bring in data partners there so I could reach high net worth, high household income audiences, filter by their behaviors online.

Karin Conroy (04:47.533)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (05:00.182)
saw success. The first campaign raised $2.83 million, was introduced to more issuers, companies issuing shares. The laws opened up further in 2016 and regulation crowdfunding, Reg CF, went into effect. Now I was able to target both retail and accredited investors. Today you could raise up to $5 million on a Reg CF from both audiences up to $75 million on a Regulation A plus campaign. You could even use it to direct list and go public.

Karin Conroy (05:04.268)
Nice.

Jason Fishman (05:27.203)
Reg D, there’s not a cap, but you do have to be accredited and usually a higher minimum investment level.

Karin Conroy (05:32.972)
Okay, so tell me how those campaigns were different.

Jason Fishman (05:39.598)
They’re different because we weren’t just going after leads. We weren’t just going after sales or app installs. We are going after investors. Now I could call it a lead generation campaign or even an e-commerce campaign because the retail initiatives, those transactions take place on the offering page. The Reg D campaigns are more lead gen and then working with investor relations to follow up thereafter, like an intake department at a firm.

Karin Conroy (05:44.874)
Okay. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:08.46)
Right. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (06:09.632)
So definitely the clear reflection there. But at the same time, I wanted to make sure I was really making an impact on the target audience. This wasn’t just a one-off direct response campaign. I needed to get them in the marketing funnel, have enough touch points, really enroll them so that the conversion rate was attractive once it came out the other side.

Karin Conroy (06:22.701)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:26.626)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (06:35.426)
Yeah. Okay, so tell me how those, you know, these are two very different kinds of buyer. So tell me what you would do differently to approach them in different ways. You know, the initial one where you’re an ad in a magazine, the potential value on conversion is who knows what the ad is for, but it’s nothing near the value.

Jason Fishman (06:44.556)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (07:03.466)
Mm-hmm. That’s exactly right.

Karin Conroy (07:03.528)
of a conversion for an investor, right? Okay, so tell me, how did you position your campaigns in a different way to accommodate for that much higher end viewer?

Jason Fishman (07:16.654)
Yes. So I’m a numbers guy. know a lot of your audience pays attention to the marketing spends, what it’s coming out in terms of tangible results on the other side. I want to start this with Reg D lead generation campaigns where maybe it’s $50 worth spending on a lead. That’s an average across channels with auto fill and maybe five to $15 per lead as well as

Karin Conroy (07:32.269)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (07:35.736)
Okay.

Jason Fishman (07:42.19)
longer lead pages, longer intake forms, maybe it’s 50 to $100 per lead. And if we’re averaging on a Reg D, a credit investor run campaign initiative at about $50, it’s a good mid funnel signal. It’s a good mid funnel KPI, performance indicator. I’ll then tell you some stats in the industry as well as what our clients look to see if they’re converting one out of 50, five zero.

of those leads, that’s a $2,500 acquisition cost. And on a Reg D campaign, if it’s a $25,000, $50,000 minimum to invest, I’ll tell you it’s $100,000, $125,000 average investment, average order value that I’m anticipating. Could be substantially higher if it’s 100K minimum. Maybe it’s a $260, $280 AOV average order value, average investment value.

Karin Conroy (08:13.294)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (08:33.888)
So if it’s a $2,500 acquisition cost to accomplish that, we could be looking at 40X, could be looking at higher. I’ll tell you I have clients that have under a thousand dollar acquisition costs for these types of audiences, which are different than the retail ones going after the higher end ones, maybe similar to some of the clients, some of the cases that you guys are going after. But I have to do a strong enough job in the creatives that the lead each step of the funnel, each step of the algorithm.

Karin Conroy (08:55.553)
Right.

Jason Fishman (09:00.854)
is coming in at the right levels and we’re able to hit those return on ad spend metrics. Otherwise the campaigns can’t continue. I mean, these groups are looking to raise funds and if it’s working, not only are they going to continue, they’re going to scale.

Karin Conroy (09:07.073)
Right.

Karin Conroy (09:12.526)
Okay, so just to summarize, because a lot of my listeners, like I was following everything you were saying, but I just wanna like summarize, because there was a lot there. So the average lead is gonna cost about 50 bucks. you need like on, we’re just very summarizing these numbers, obviously, just, and I feel like the numbers are also to kind of make the math a little bit easier. So on average, you’re gonna need at least five. So we’re gonna talk about 2,500 bucks.

Jason Fishman (09:36.93)
Mm-hmm. The round.

Karin Conroy (09:42.22)
to get one lead conversion that is then gonna be 100 grand? Is that what you’re saying? Okay, so we’re gonna.

Jason Fishman (09:51.884)
Yes, I would anticipate that on these rounds. It could be higher. And it’s all contingent upon that conversion rate. It all has to physically close. But those are the benchmarks. yeah.

Karin Conroy (10:00.406)
Of course, but those are the kind of numbers we’re talking about. We’re spending $2,500, which is five times 50. And those are the kind of numbers that are gonna convert to a $100,000 conversion investment, which is the conversion value of this. So in a lawyer’s mind, this should be the value of that case, $100,000 case. Okay, so that’s good to start with in terms of…

Jason Fishman (10:24.621)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (10:29.432)
how you have the numbers so clear and how much we are gonna spend for each one of those. Because I feel like it’s a starting point that a lot of people are insecure about and they don’t know, like, I don’t know, is a $50 lead, is that a lot, is that not a lot? In your case, and obviously this varies, varies, varies, like everybody’s always gonna say this depends on your practice area, your geographic region, all of that stuff. But in this example,

these are the numbers that are working just to kind of summarize all this. But where I want to get to is the stuff that you were talking about at the end, the creative leading to the conversion and how all of this works. Because I know that you talk a lot about the creative doing that heavy lift of getting them through these funnels. So let’s get into that piece of it. Because this is the part that I think people…

overlook and they are like, whatever with that. And they just focus on the stuff we were just talking about a minute ago, all the numbers, and they focus too much on the numbers and they don’t realize the value of that creative. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Jason Fishman (11:41.038)
Absolutely. And yes, start with the numbers to show what’s possible. Start getting under the hood from there. In fact, I would begin every marketing campaign with a strategy. I’ve built a model called the eight point plan. We’re usually doing over the course of a month. I’ve done workshops where it’s in four hours and it’s two sections an hour versus two sections a week like we would do in four weeks. Sure.

Karin Conroy (11:52.054)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (11:58.217)
my gosh.

Should we start with that? Because I feel like a law firm should start with that before we get into the creative part. What’s the eight point plan?

Jason Fishman (12:07.158)
Yeah. Yeah. And I could fire through it. So if you’re on the edge of your seat saying, Hey, what do need to put in for the creative? It really is a sequence. If, if I’m asked, you know, Hey, create an amazing ad for me around this law firm tomorrow around this investment opportunity. Sure. I could shoot from the hip. could pull from campaigns. I I’ve worked on in the past and kind of template what goes in there, but I really want to have the best foot out the door.

Karin Conroy (12:12.782)
You’ve got your notepad out.

Jason Fishman (12:35.01)
The results matter and in the early periods of time, that’s the difference of a 1 % conversion rate or a 2 % conversion rate on some of these pages, 510 on a landing page, what have you, but exponentially different results. So when I say eight point plan, it starts with the industry overview and I’m looking to pull stats, I’m looking to pull relevancy, moves to competitor marketing audit. And it amazes me when I speak with firms, they may know a few billboards, a few commercials.

Karin Conroy (12:55.853)
Okay.

Jason Fishman (13:01.496)
that other groups in their space are running. I’ll tell you lot of that’s conquesting, by the way. It’s not actually performance marketing. You could call it branding, could throw the word ego in there somewhere. I’ve heard that as part of the discussion.

Karin Conroy (13:05.591)
Yes.

Right?

Karin Conroy (13:11.67)
Yeah, lots of the ego. feel like, yeah, there’s a big ego element in a lot of people’s branding strategy. I could not agree more with that. I know you’re also in Southern California and if you head towards Las Vegas, there’s so much of that with the billboards and there’s a version that I’m trying to think of that is…

Jason Fishman (13:29.2)
yeah.

Karin Conroy (13:36.958)
not as offensive as the way it’s coming across in my head, but it’s basically like, you know, the way a dog goes around and marks its territory. It’s like that, you know, it’s that kind of a competition and it doesn’t really move the needle. It doesn’t do anything other than make whoever’s on that billboard feel really good about themselves. yeah. So, so, sorry, go back to go back to the eight point plan. Yeah. Yes.

Jason Fishman (13:44.066)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (13:58.446)
Yeah, well, in the competitor marketing audit, with that, you want to really analyze three to five, if not more, of your competitors. And these are people competing for your same audience. In theory, could be in different verticals. When I’m doing it the investment campaigns, I’m looking at their competitors for their industry and then other investment opportunities that are going to be competing for the same individuals. So you kind of want to be a little creative around it and not just, here are the groups I know of. And then you want to

Karin Conroy (14:07.277)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:18.67)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (14:27.938)
dive into their marketing. So I’ll go on to sites like SimilarWeb. I’ll see how much traffic they’re getting to their website and from which demographics and from which channels. It’s amazing what you could find online. I’ll look at platforms. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:39.584)
It is amazing and I feel like a lot of people don’t realize this, that so much of what’s happening with your competitors marketing is public information. This is not sneaky, this is not anything we’re doing that’s like questionably, know, ethically questionable. This is just out there and so is yours, by the way, if you’re doing ads and all that stuff. So you can find the right websites. SimilarWeb is one that you’re mentioning. There’s a lot of them out there.

Jason Fishman (14:48.611)
Yes.

Jason Fishman (14:57.058)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Karin Conroy (15:07.574)
where you can take a really solid look at a combination of all the different kinds of marketing tactics that your competitors are doing.

Jason Fishman (15:16.428)
Yep, and you should know this going in because they’re gonna target the same audiences as you and you wanna make sure what you’re putting out is as strong if not stronger. You can see why the creative discussion really begins here. You wanna look at their site, their traffic, all the different sources. You wanna look at their search advertising, very important for legal of course, keywords that they’re bidding on, keywords that they’re ranking for, the actual ads they’re running, even projections on how much they’re spending, which isn’t always accurate but it does give you an idea.

Karin Conroy (15:18.626)
Yeah.

Right.

Karin Conroy (15:44.106)
It’s not, yeah, it’s better than nothing. And you know, it’s better than guessing. So it at least gives you a ballpark of where to start. And then you always have to overlay that with your own plan, your own budget, what makes the most sense. You know, if they’re really focusing, let’s say on a certain region, maybe that doesn’t work for you. Maybe you tried it and whatever, or maybe you have a better region that you’ve been focusing on and you’re like, okay, let them have that.

Jason Fishman (15:47.053)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (16:12.578)
You know, there’s like the blue ocean strategy. Let them have that. I’m going to go over here and focus on this little angle that they’re not doing.

Jason Fishman (16:17.866)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It doesn’t mean you have to recreate everything that they do, but success does leave clues. And you can take from different aspects of their channel strategy, their messaging, or have your whole fresh take on it. Or like you said, Blue Ocean, love that. Let’s work in these areas and here are some easy wins for us. Ads library, if you Google Facebook ads library, you could see any ad that anyone who’s running advertising on Neta is currently live.

Karin Conroy (16:23.586)
Yeah. Yes.

Karin Conroy (16:32.066)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (16:47.734)
So I know Google search, that’s more of the focal point for many advertisers here. At the same time, it’s fun to look at what they’re putting out for visuals messaging. And there’s some groups that are owning the space here. They’re cleaning up and the cost per click is far less.

Karin Conroy (17:02.466)
Well, and let’s also-

sorry to interrupt again, but let’s also be realistic about where things are going with AI search and everything. And we need to have a broader scope on what platforms we’re showing up on and not just put all of our eggs in one basket. We’ve been saying this for years, even before AI, that you need to diversify. And I know that’s a good investment word to do. But for all of those reasons, you for sure should not just be doing

Jason Fishman (17:09.624)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (17:25.389)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (17:28.982)
Absolutely.

Karin Conroy (17:35.062)
all of your ads in Google and you for sure should not be focusing your entire marketing strategy on that.

Jason Fishman (17:40.34)
Mm-hmm. I have a philosophy. It’s something I say a lot. It’s the name of my podcast, Test, Optimize, Scale. Marketing is just a test until it’s validated with the data. We have assumptions going in, but we need the physical analytics to show us what’s working. You optimize towards it. You try to optimize everything to improve it, and you look for opportunities to scale. And if I’m seeing trends in the competitor marketing audit, I’m telling myself, hey, this is working because they keep doing it and at larger levels.

Karin Conroy (17:49.451)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (17:55.15)
100 %

Karin Conroy (17:59.681)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (18:06.134)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (18:08.11)
You can look at what they’re running with the media. You can look at what they’re running on social platforms. There’s so much you can base what your target audience is seeing off of from this audit. You then get into the following week, the following hour, if you will, target audiences and channels. I like to think of it as personas. I want to know what they do on the weekends. I want to know where they go online. Once I get to the channel section, I want to prioritize. So like you’re saying, Karin, it’s, hey, where do I want to start? Which channels do I want to move?

to from there. I don’t have to spend time, physical dollars on every channel right out of the gate, but I want to be able to highlight where I want to begin. Then you get into the creative section. And at that point, it’s all worked in sequence. You know what else is out there, which audiences you’re going to be targeting. I like to put a fictional name, an image. I really want to know who I’m going after. I’m looking at the channels, and they could be very dialed on the messaging.

Karin Conroy (18:43.768)
Right.

Karin Conroy (19:05.614)
Well, and this could be something as simple as like when you’re thinking about those personas, this could be something as simple as you have a handful, maybe three or four really great clients that you’re gonna actually put their face as this ideal client. And I’ve done this for myself and I actually picture this person and I use their name. And so then it’s like, okay, that makes it easy for me to say, what would, you know, Bob or whatever, what would they want in this?

Jason Fishman (19:20.397)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (19:34.594)
you know, in this question that I have over here for them. And then it also ties back to this idea of the thing that my marketing professor in grad school said is you just need to be where your customers are, or, you know, in your case clients. So for the example I have for that is when I first started building this agency, I was present on the Lawyerist website, which is a small

website for small and solo law firm owners where they’re learning to build their firm. And I was on there writing all these articles about marketing. And I eventually started having ads on that website, but not initially. Initially, it was just me present, giving information, being the expert. And I was the only one talking about marketing. The rest of them were talking about like,

your tech stack or this thing that you need to know to be a lawyer and whatever. And I was just in my lane with marketing and that was 100 % how I built my agency. That site has since changed, but that was 15 years ago. this is core marketing stuff. This does not change. This is, we mentioned AI, but this stuff does not change with the technology. This is core marketing philosophy. So

being where your clients are. So did I show up and, you know, go onto a design website or a marketing website? No, because then I’m kind of speaking to my people that are all, I want to speak to my customer. So I’m showing up where the lawyers are and then I’m telling them about marketing. So sorry for that long-winded answer, but let’s get into the creative piece of it. Cause this is my favorite part. okay. So you’ve got this.

Jason Fishman (21:02.222)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (21:13.942)
Okay. Sure.

Karin Conroy (21:18.808)
this, you’ve kind of gone through the pieces of, you know, putting together your strategy. And I know we didn’t go through all eight pieces of that, but there’s only so much time in the day. So now we are going to start talking about the creative part of it and how that leads to the success of these campaigns.

Jason Fishman (21:37.238)
Yeah, yeah. And so you have the inspiration from the competitor marketing audit. Hopefully you’ve already put together your style guide, your branding. Maybe you’re much further along than this, but could always be enhanced. And you want to be able to have that in the background as you’re determining which videos, which photos you’re producing, you’re pulling from stock, you’re creating from AI. Make sure it doesn’t look like AI, by the way. And at least that would be my recommendation. Good AI usage.

Karin Conroy (21:42.356)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (22:02.678)
Yeah. Please. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (22:06.222)
It looks like AI. And so as you’re going through this, you’re asking yourself, does that target audience actually care about what I’m putting out? I like the social ad format because you have the usage of a visual, photo, video, illustration, what have you. You have the text above the visual, as well as your brand logo and name. And then underneath, you have the headline along with the call to action button.

fundamental aspects of an advertisement, at least a performance, a direct response ad. So when I’m working on an investment campaign, I want each piece of the ad to do something differently. I want the text to speak about the company and with different bullet points. And it has to pass the glance test. It can’t be bodies of paragraph. I’m not going to look at that. Why would these target audiences who don’t know the brand take a look at it? The headline

Karin Conroy (22:54.271)
Yeah. No.

Jason Fishman (23:00.744)
We’re usually talking about the investment opportunity, but it’s then blending those two aspects of what the target audience is going to respond to. And then we want to have variance for the visuals. I like to use numbers. think I didn’t get to the projections area of the strategy of strategic partnerships, but the only way to measure is of numbers. If I’m talking about digital, it’s impressions, clicks, conversions. Perhaps it’s average.

Karin Conroy (23:15.107)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (23:27.468)
settlements, average cases, how much to date. You want to be able to show depth, value with those numbers and they draw people in. I use the word glance test. You’re catching some on their mobile device quite often and you want to pull them in with those numbers. So I like to incorporate.

Karin Conroy (23:35.222)
Right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (23:45.26)
Yeah, and is it gonna stop the scroll? And I think it’s, you you talked about impressions, clicks, and conversions. I think it’s the same for a law firm. I think this is just human behavior. And so, you know, as they’re scrolling, does this relate to some question that they have, some need that they have at the moment? And if so, are you saying enough to get their attention and stop them to scroll and click, you know? So stopping is one thing and then clicking is the next, and then…

Jason Fishman (23:54.317)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (24:13.998)
Will they actually convert is the third question. So yeah, but I think it’s all the same.

Jason Fishman (24:17.25)
Yes.

all the things I want to add to that. Say what you need to say in as few words as possible. There’s an exercise I put clients through. It’s called the 3-1-3 method. Ryan Folan also down in Orange County did a TED Talk on it, but you break what you do down into three sentences. You break that down into one sentence. You eventually move it into three words. If you could say something powerfully in three words versus three sentences,

not only will likely resonate more with your target audience, they’re going to be able to repeat it. They can be ambassadors. I can remember three words. As soon as it gets to four, it starts to feel like a list. This is psychological. This isn’t just me. So you really want to put every word to use there. Every word needs to be there for a reason, as if it’s part of the design. I would also say incorporate as much social proof as possible. So numbers.

Karin Conroy (25:01.024)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:09.782)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:14.21)
Yes. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (25:16.462)
cut down the words and people don’t believe what they see online. The more validators, the better.

Karin Conroy (25:21.354)
No, yeah. I think they start out with a certain layer of skepticism and then you have to kind of break through that, especially when it comes to lawyers. And depending on your practice area, there could be an extra layer there too. If you do personal injury or something, like you really have to prove that you’re not that stereotypical, you know, kind of figure that they’ve seen way too much on TV or radio or whatever.

Jason Fishman (25:32.407)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:50.51)
Yeah, and I think that’s so true to have those trust indicators show that you can prove that you’ve done this, that you’ve done this in the past, you’ve had success, and that you can have that success for them. And obviously it almost goes without saying that you obviously have to do all the things within your bar association requirements in terms of saying, this does not indicate a future trustee, blah, blah, blah, all of those disclaimers.

that stuff that everybody has to say. But I think there’s a lot to be said for these trust indicators that all of a sudden people start to believe the next thing you say because you’ve shown them that you’ve had that success. How do you do that with investments?

Jason Fishman (26:38.126)
So you got Reg CF and Regulation A plus campaigns that include retail investors. Some of those are small, $1,500, $2,500 average investments. And we have to drive relatively substantial amounts of traffic so that even at those average investment amounts, we’re bringing in hundreds, bringing in thousands. We have a client, they brought in over 50,000 investments total. We’re a big part of that, over 29.25x return on ad spend.

Karin Conroy (27:02.582)
Nice.

Karin Conroy (27:06.252)
Nice!

Jason Fishman (27:08.342)
I you if I’m able to state that even as I did there, over 50,000 investors, over a thousand investors, over 20 million raised, over two million raised, it’s showing something. You then have publisher appearances. So as featured by Forbes, Wall Street Journal, I’ve actually built partnerships. I know someone in the print world that were able to then access and run advertising from over 120,

Karin Conroy (27:20.76)
Got it.

Karin Conroy (27:27.594)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (27:38.168)
different print publishers’ handles. So it’s an advertising running from entrepreneur, not the brand’s page. It’s an advertisement running from Rolling Stone, as an example. And you look for these ways to show, people are talking about this. People care about it. You want to have a headline-worthy announcement coming out each week as part of your content marketing program.

Karin Conroy (27:56.823)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (28:04.332)
social email, long form content. You can have a repurpose through your ad strategy and what you’re doing in the follow ups and retargeting. So you want to be able to play off social dynamics. And I believe this is true for any brand unless you’re trying to fly under the radar. You want to have a line around the block. You want to have a crowd effect. You do not want an empty restaurant sensation. So the more you’re able to show this in your content, the more you’re to show it from your paid media, the more you’re able to show those validators.

Karin Conroy (28:15.916)
Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:25.74)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Fishman (28:34.264)
third party, the better.

Karin Conroy (28:36.588)
Yeah, okay. So we’ve kind of created this eight step strategy. Is it eight step or an eight, what is it? Eight point. knew it wasn’t steps. I wasn’t getting that right. Okay, the eight point plan. And then we talk about the creative, but what I see that you talk a lot about are these funnels and this whole system of kind of, you know, taking a person through the ad all the way through.

Jason Fishman (28:44.268)
I it the eight point plan, eight steps work as well.

Yeah

Karin Conroy (29:04.62)
you know, this process or process if you’re in Canada, of the sale, right? Or the conversion or however we want to talk about it. So let’s talk about that, the kind of system of how that works, how many steps, the kind of nitty gritty of what you found that works and then what mistakes you see people make or have maybe mistakes people have made before they started working with you.

in the past that you kind of see commonly.

Jason Fishman (29:35.822)
Sure, sure, it’s perfect because we move from strategy to creative in our process. I’m gonna start calling it that, process process.

Karin Conroy (29:43.342)
I don’t even know if I have that many Canadian listeners, but I love the Canadians. So I feel like I want to speak to them specifically.

Jason Fishman (29:46.638)
you

Jason Fishman (29:52.259)
They have different securities law. have to run campaigns in a different fashion there in terms of compliance, but a market that’s waking up more. So creative beyond just the ads, beyond the content, what does that funnel look like? And the word funnels broad. You’re basically taking audiences from awareness to consideration, intent, conversion on the retail campaigns we run, repeat conversion and advocacy, peer to peer marketing, which I could tell you not all firms.

Karin Conroy (29:55.414)
interesting.

Karin Conroy (30:08.749)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:20.29)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (30:21.92)
really take into account. think, hey, they have a case right now. Maybe they have something later, but I think your audience, your clients can be your strongest performers in terms of marketing. I knew plenty of firms that were getting strong referral business and in many cases from past clients.

Karin Conroy (30:23.832)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:27.948)
I’m good. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:34.104)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:41.164)
Yeah, well, and they’re also leaving a lot of business on the table because they’re not focusing on that referral business. spent all of, I think it was 2024, the entire podcast, every episode was about the marketing funnel, a different part of the marketing funnel. And we focused on a tactic combined with the marketing funnel because I feel like it’s so important. And I feel like it’s so common for there to be one part of the funnel that they’re not doing well.

Jason Fishman (30:47.191)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (31:09.888)
And it’s usually the bottom. It’s for law firms. It’s usually that, you know, you guys are happy, you’re fine. The house is not on fire. You’re at the bottom of the funnel. So I’m not so focused on it. I’m sort of putting that on my back burner and then they never get to it, which is such a waste. And there’s so much gold there. So how do you, how do you kind of make that systematic and how do you make sure that people are getting through and then spend an extra minute talking about how you focus on that bottom part so that it doesn’t get lost.

Jason Fishman (31:38.582)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The conversion rate is the most important metric. If you’re getting a consistent conversion rate, it’s just a matter of driving more traffic from those quality audiences, but it starts at the top of the funnel. So I hear a lot of firms talk about search advertising and how competitive it is, the cost per click, hundreds of dollars for different types of cases. If you’re able to get a $3,000, know,

signing for a new client that’s a good place for personal injury in some other areas we’ve worked in in the past. I would say don’t just look at the text. Don’t just look at having them call in. Look at the whole funnel like you’re talking about. And I started the creative discussion of social ads. You could then take the most impactful, the punchiest, the graviest, the most enrolling aspects of your

Karin Conroy (32:22.316)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (32:34.712)
copy for social ads, which you should still use at a minimum for retargeting. I’ll get back to that in your search ad copy. Have variants, have all the right links, make it stand out, make it stronger than your competitors. Not just as strong, make it stronger. Then you want to determine where your traffic’s going to. You’ve already audited landing pages of your competitors and the folks that are winning these ad placements. Have a good landing page. It’s focused on audiences doing one thing.

Karin Conroy (32:48.034)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (32:56.429)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (33:02.316)
You could test it out to your site. I’m a bigger fan of landing pages because you’re setting up to do one thing. So it’s not look around, you know, do what you want. We’ve a bunch of info here. It’s fill out this form. It’s call us most likely. And you use landing page best practices. I would say every other section is social proof. Here’s past clients. Here’s how, you know, a bit about their cases. If appropriate, here’s how much they’ve won. Faces.

Karin Conroy (33:26.242)
Yeah, here’s the story that’s gonna kind of get to the emotion of it. And then here’s the button that you click to call us. Yeah. Yep.

Jason Fishman (33:32.204)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we do the same thing on investment campaigns. And you really have to bring people in. This is a big decision for them. So the more of this you’re able to put in, the better. And then what I want to jump to from there is what happens after that submission, what happens after the call. So I start getting to those mid-lower funnel sections.

Karin Conroy (33:40.961)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:49.901)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (33:54.028)
Yeah, because I feel like this is where a lot of people stop. They’re like, okay, we’ve got the conversion and that’s the number and then that’s the end of my marketing campaign. So yes, let’s spend extra time here.

Jason Fishman (33:56.78)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I could talk for the next hour just about how to design a landing page. But I would say make it as strong, if not stronger, really back to make it stronger than your competitors. And there’s a lot of clues to take from there. Email drip sequence, SMS follow-ups, getting someone on the line with them quickly. But have meaningful content showing up to them regularly thereafter. Talk about what your clients are asking you about that week.

Karin Conroy (34:13.709)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (34:25.773)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (34:29.592)
talk about, wins that you have, talk about everything that you can publicly, but social validators, you can manufacture this. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (34:34.444)
Yeah, because once you’re in those emails, now each email should have a different angle and you can do so many different things and it feels more personal because now you’re in their inbox and you’re kind of having this conversation, but it should not be long. Like let’s just, let’s picture yourself going through your inbox. You know, you’re going to click through all your emails and you’re going to scan. And so, you know,

Jason Fishman (34:45.934)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (35:02.336)
a couple paragraphs at most and they should be short and there should be some bullets in there and it should be stuff that they can scan, but also maybe click for some more information if they really, if there’s something really compelling, like if you’re telling a story of a case or something, they can click over and watch a video testimonial from that person. But yeah, let’s go into that piece because, gosh, it’s so lost, I think.

Jason Fishman (35:20.258)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Fishman (35:29.006)
Yeah, no one wants to hear that they have, you know, a thousand potential cases in the CRM and the funnel, but only, you know, for that sign this month. It’s like, ah, what would we do? How do we get more of those? Even if it’s 40, you get the idea, you use the term a lot left on the table. We see that with investments all of the time and we have to create the excitement. You get to control the narrative as part of that strategy, as part of the creative, you’re putting together a content calendar.

Karin Conroy (35:39.661)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (35:58.296)
and you’re talking about what’s gonna be posted when and where, and to avoid repetition, to be able to take your audience across this journey. What if every week you were featured on a different podcast? What if every week, or it’s blended in, you have a thought leadership article going out? This could be industry specific, this could be local, this could be in the trucking industry, and you work on automotive cases, and the next week a different category of automotive. You could be really creative about this, you manufacture it, it doesn’t just happen by accident.

Karin Conroy (35:58.456)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (36:05.88)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (36:13.804)
Yep. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (36:27.758)
You’re not just waking up on a Tuesday in the terminal at the post. Yes.

Karin Conroy (36:27.938)
Yeah. And it’s all part of the story because all of those people, even though they’ve come to your funnel, they’re going to see all of that stuff. They’re not just going to stay there with the email. They’re going to click over to your website. They’re going to click maybe to your social media account. They’re going to, especially in, I feel like the investment actually for law firms too, they want to get to know you. This is a, this is a big deal. This is not just buying a pair of shoes. You know, this is,

something that they want to think through. They want to feel that they’re making a very logical decision, but it’s also super emotional whether they admit it or not. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (37:05.869)
Mm-hmm. It absolutely is. And that’s why it’s so important that you understand your target audience, how you’re speaking to them, even the colors and typography that you’re using. But as part of these content follow-ups, they don’t want to feel sold. You hey, how about now? Are we moving forward on this? But it’s a great excuse to tell them about something big he did this week. And even, you know, going back to one of their questions, if you’re able to show an answer from video content for a content piece and appearance you had maybe at a conference this week.

Karin Conroy (37:20.31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (37:26.157)
Right.

Karin Conroy (37:35.171)
Yes.

Jason Fishman (37:35.532)
So you put it together so you have something new already in store, already in development, already in the can to distribute that week so you’re able to get back to them. I’m telling you, for investments, it makes all the difference, even for these large, I talked about average investments. Some of the investments come in million, multi-million dollars, and from digital campaigns, from these same tools. I know some of the cases you guys get are millions of dollars and they’re, you

filtered in there, have to go through a hundred of them, a hundred leads to find that right one. This content can make you stand out from the other groups that are going after them. And it could be just what they need to convert. You want to make it more frequent, more meaningful as you get lower and lower into the funnel.

Karin Conroy (38:14.446)
but also very thoughtful. This isn’t the place to slack off because you spent all your money and time and effort on that first part of the funnel, getting their attention and everything. Now that you’ve got their attention and you’re in their inbox, don’t half-ass this part. Make sure that it’s very thoughtful and you’re really kind of speaking to their emotions, like you said, without being salesy, without being that, like, buy now, buy now, are you ready, are you ready? Without being desperate.

Jason Fishman (38:39.075)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (38:44.396)
because that’s just going to erode your brand entirely, whatever industry you’re in, whether it’s an investment or a law firm. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (38:50.134)
Yeah. And you’re looking for little pockets of performance. If you have variants, if you have multiple funnels running, if you have advertising, driving traffic into those funnels, maybe you have 10 different ads running. Maybe that’s to 10 different audiences, a variety of different groups of keywords. You’re not just looking at, what’s my total return? That’s good. And you want to know that of course, bottom line. But if you’re at at a moderate level, meanwhile, one of the segments is producing

Karin Conroy (38:53.879)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (39:09.954)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (39:19.598)
at exponentially stronger levels of results, you can optimize towards it. It’s little differences that shape a campaign that produces a few hundred thousand dollars and a few million dollars, whether that’s investments or cases. So you want to continue managing it to a point of effectiveness. You want to set the right parameters, right net so you know what you’re tracking and where you’re looking for a lift. And you want to give it enough time and keep optimizing it until it’s to a scalable point.

Karin Conroy (39:47.692)
Okay, so you mentioned a few things there. Give it enough time, make sure you have the right parameters. Where do you see the biggest mistake happening? Is it one of those things or something different?

Jason Fishman (39:59.502)
Too much of a focus on direct response and in too short of a period of time. I would look at these marketing channels as an ongoing part of your business. Does it have to be with the set agency? Does it have to be with your internal team that you have today? No, you could change up who’s doing it, but the channels themselves, as long as your competitors are there, as long as the audience is there and they’re seeing results and you have an opportunity to tap into that business.

Karin Conroy (40:02.285)
Yeah.

Yeah, not enough time. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (40:10.072)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (40:27.224)
You’re gonna wanna figure out how you can use these channels to produce your goals. instead of just looking at the return on ad spend, the cost per lead, how many cases he closed month one, month three, you wanna look at how to better things for next month, next week, next month, next quarter. And the more you have that mindset, the more you have that mentality, I’ve seen more creative approaches.

Karin Conroy (40:31.746)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (40:43.586)
Yeah. Yep.

Jason Fishman (40:54.626)
I’ve seen little differences that produce results and then are really leaned into and change up everything about a brand. If you look at some of these top marketing law firms, they don’t want to spend millions of dollars a month on advertising. It’s not like they like giving the money to these sports teams or to Meta or to Google or to lead generation vendors or anything like that. It’s because they tested it.

Karin Conroy (41:02.744)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (41:10.358)
Yes.

Jason Fishman (41:21.272)
They saw results. They aggressively spent more on it and more and more and more. And that showed up in their market share.

Karin Conroy (41:21.408)
Yeah, right.

Karin Conroy (41:27.694)
and then they fine tuned it. Yeah. I like what you said though about making it part of this broad strategy though. Cause I think this is another piece that people miss in the funnel is that it’s not just like if you picture a funnel and it’s not just like you’ve got this droplet of water that flows through once and you know, it’s a constant thing that you at all levels have to be filling. So I’m trying to picture like what…

what device that would be where it’s almost like beakers across a countertop or something where you need all of them full all the time. You so you find the one that’s and it’s usually like I said earlier that bottom part of the funnel that retention and the repeat clients and stuff. That’s the one that’s lacking. That’s the one that’s, you know, either empty or half full or, you know, not full.

Jason Fishman (42:02.744)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (42:17.326)
in some way, the other ones, like the attention and the awareness and the SEO piece, that’s usually overful and there’s way too much attention. But all of them need to be full and you need to be constantly filling and thinking and planning and strategizing for all of the levels of the funnel across the board. And I think that’s something that gets lost also is that people are like, okay, I’m just doing this one thing and then I’m just, no, no, this is why marketing is.

Jason Fishman (42:35.608)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (42:46.552)
Complicated. There’s a lot of stuff.

Jason Fishman (42:46.67)
Yeah. If you’re just doing that one thing, your hands are tied to that one thing. I’ve seen it happen before with search campaigns, with law firms where, we’ll get a call a month later and they’re like, oh, know, search stopped working for us. We don’t know what to do. We’re not getting any leads in. I was trying to think of a visual, like you were saying, I pictured it at a parking lot, maybe a stadium. And, you know, one of the lanes is blocked. Someone’s trying to pay with a card that doesn’t work. you’re like, okay, we need to move this. And you need

Karin Conroy (42:52.216)
Right.

Karin Conroy (43:00.75)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:06.518)
Yeah, yes, yeah, that’s a good one too. Yeah. Yes.

Jason Fishman (43:16.51)
you know, different highways, different traffic sources for each of these to make sure there’s a long enough line at each and you’re able to fill the lot and fill the lot in the right period of time. I don’t know if that’s a direct crossover, but I know everyone’s had that feeling of my lane’s going too slow.

Karin Conroy (43:21.037)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:26.474)
Exactly. No, I like it. Yeah. It’s like, exactly. lane is either going too slow or plugged or whatever. And meanwhile, the parking lot is just sitting there empty. You know, I need to fill all of these spots and yeah. All right. It is time for the book review. We have a whole section on the website called the Thought Leaders Library. And every episode we have a book review. And so Jason, what’s the book that you are going to recommend that people check out today?

Jason Fishman (43:38.744)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Fishman (43:44.001)
Okay.

Jason Fishman (43:55.576)
So one that I’m constantly referencing in consulting conversations, and I think it’s very applicable for this industry, is the e-myth, the entrepreneur myth. And that is the myth that as an entrepreneur, you are not self-employed. It’s the difference of working on your business, working in your business, being an entrepreneur, being self-employed, and encouraging you to be an entrepreneur and work on it, have these moving pieces that you’re managing.

Karin Conroy (44:04.268)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (44:21.198)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (44:24.43)
To avoid burnout, to build processes that you do not have to be a part of and therefore are far more scalable. It talks about the franchisable model and how startups, 90 % of them fail the first year. New franchise locations, 90 % of them are in business, they’re doing well. After that first year, it’s a reverse. It does not mean every business needs to be a franchise. It just needs to be franchisable, meaning you can put a checklist together.

Karin Conroy (44:38.871)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (44:50.208)
No, but I’ve seen this. There’s great DUI lawyer in North Carolina that we had on early on, and he has at the time like 14 offices and he was killing it. And at the time he was doing a lot of local service ads because he was just focusing like for DUIs around a certain office location. It was amazing. But I do think that a lot of law firms, lawyers come in and they are kind of sitting on this lofty idea of I’m a lawyer. don’t

I don’t want to run a business. I don’t want to and it’s like then it’s not gonna work. This is a business and you’ve got to think of it in that way and I think that’s what this book is kind of getting at. Like there’s parts of the business that you have to do in order to succeed whether you like it or not and if you don’t like it then hire somebody that does that thing really well but make sure it’s done so that that piece of the business doesn’t you know so you get you pay your taxes and stuff like that.

Jason Fishman (45:43.436)
Absolutely. You got to hand off those hats, even if it feels like you’re not ready yet. It gives the example of the baker and she loves baking, opens a bakery. A few months in, she’s working 14 hours a day, hates baking. They’re not making enough money and all areas of the business are suffering. But if you’re able to remove hats, set up team members, it, maybe set up the right relationships for this to occur in a monetary, monetarily comfortable way.

Karin Conroy (46:03.608)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (46:13.154)
But it gives a lot of great recommendations on how you can create these checklists for repeatable systems. And that absolutely applies to marketing on top of it.

Karin Conroy (46:19.917)
Yeah.

Yeah, it does. It applies to everything. And then when you have these systems, now you can do what you’re best at your, you know, strengths or there’s so many books that kind of speak to this. You know, it’s that like 80 20 rule, like make sure that you’re focusing on your strength. And that’s where your treasures are. Like that’s where you’re going to really be successful. but at the same time, you can’t let that other stuff slide. Like you have to make sure that it’s done.

Jason Fishman (46:38.894)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (46:46.636)
whether it’s you or somebody else. This book has been around forever and it’s a classic once again, because it’s just a core principle. But this idea of creating systems and checklists, like don’t leave it to the side until it’s too late because, ugh, undoing a problematic system is a bigger problem than just setting it up right in the beginning. Same as marketing. Like the amount of time I step in and have to undo problems and damage and a mess

It’s so much more work. It’s like building a historic house too. Trying to build a house within the framework of something versus just like, let’s just bulldoze and start over.

Jason Fishman (47:25.538)
Yep. Start with that strategy. Have it well thought out. I see business owners look for these miracle channels of let’s just run this and let’s start next week and receive great results the first month. It doesn’t exist. At least statistically it won’t. And then like you said, you have to tear the whole thing down afterwards. Build it off good fundamentals.

Karin Conroy (47:30.379)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (47:37.774)
Yeah. No, it’s not realistic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And, be realistic about it because there is a certain amount of burnout that you were talking about with the E-Myth where, um, like if you have this unrealistic expectation and then it doesn’t happen in that first month, now you’re emotionally invested and it’s not happening and it shouldn’t have happened. Like that wasn’t a realistic thought.

but now you have to kind of pick yourself off the floor at the same time, and that’s rough. Yeah. Okay. So we’ve covered a lot, but what is the first thing after someone listens to this episode that they should sit down and think about actually doing in terms of all of this stuff that we talked about, the book that you recommended and the checklists and the funnels and the, you know, all of the good stuff that we talked about, what’s the first thing they should do?

Jason Fishman (48:14.171)
yeah, seen it before.

Jason Fishman (48:35.96)
Build a marketing strategy. I’d call it an algorithmic roadmap to your goals. And it makes you think big picture of, you what are the goals for the quarter, the half, the year? I would, you know, for extra credit, if you’re really taking this seriously, put together three, five year marketing strategy because it ties directly in with your revenue. And you start working backwards of, if I want to get there, where do I have to be next year? Where do I have to be this year? And you’re going to push yourself further. It’s not just putting your toe in the water this year. It’s

Karin Conroy (48:39.874)
Ooh, I like that.

Karin Conroy (49:03.693)
Yeah.

Jason Fishman (49:05.614)
It’s in the foundation for those much loftier numbers in years to come. And if I can add a second one, it’s speak to a professional about it. Get in contact with Karin, get in contact with someone who does this day in, day out. You know, I can give cheat codes. I know you can as well. You’ve been down this path. I’m sure you welcome calls over a half hour block. You’re going to be able to save yourself, you know, months and how many dollars I couldn’t even calculate.

Karin Conroy (49:11.926)
Yeah. 100%. Yes. Yes.

Karin Conroy (49:22.926)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jason Fishman (49:34.304)
look for the opportunity to work with them, but either way, have these relationships brew and have these conversations going. It does not need to be a guarded fortress as much as getting the right info so can hit the best levels of performance and be able to take on more from there.

Karin Conroy (49:43.361)
No.

Karin Conroy (49:51.246)
Yeah, and recognize that like your best case scenario is to be a lawyer and to be a really good lawyer. And this is the same thing you’re going to tell your own clients, you know, that you need to come to me for my expertise and I’m going to do that and I’m going to be really good at it. And I’m not going to be busy, like cleaning the toilets because I’ve got a cleaning crew for that. And I’ve got the crew that is systematic in my office so that I can do my best work. And it’s the same thing with hiring the right people.

You know, I don’t change the oil in my car. That would be a disaster. Could I? I could maybe watch a YouTube video. It would still be a disaster. So I’m not going to do that. I’m going to hire the guy to do that. Same thing with, you know, obviously everything at a higher level, your marketing and even same like, like I said, what you’re saying to your clients for their legal needs. They should not be DIYing their legal needs.

Jason Fishman (50:28.014)
You

Karin Conroy (50:45.422)
So like let’s take that same view and overlay it on top of all of this stuff.

Jason Fishman (50:51.084)
Yep. I all my clients get legal sign off. We are not lawyers. We don’t pretend to be. Make sure everything’s compliant. you know, it’s, it’s that discussion of having the right people in the room, having the right people work on this for you, being able to hit the right results accordingly, and not trying to cut corners, not trying to save a couple thousand dollars a month in some cases and jeopardize hundreds of thousands, jeopardize millions, jeopardize more in terms of results long term.

Karin Conroy (50:56.426)
Yes. No. Yes.

Karin Conroy (51:17.589)
Exactly.

Karin Conroy (51:21.162)
Exactly. Awesome. Jason Fishman is a CEO of Digital Niche Agency. And I actually meant to ask you this because this is controversial. How do you pronounce the middle word, the N one? Niche, niche, because I…

Jason Fishman (51:32.436)
niche. I’ve heard different team members pronounce it different ways. had a tagline at one point of there’s riches in the niches. There’s different ways to say it, but I go for DNA. Most of the time I say DNA.

Karin Conroy (51:40.27)
yes.

Okay, that’s easier. Okay, Jason Fishman is the CEO of DNA. It’s a agency that works with investors and investing, but you’ve got all this great information and resources around these funnels and these marketing campaigns that I find so interesting because it pulls together all of the data and the numbers combined with what really works in terms of the campaign and the branding and the strategy to make sure that

Like you’re taking all of the pieces and making sure that you’re not kind of forgetting about the creative or forgetting about these, you know, important elements that are all going to make it work. So that was a great conversation. Thank you so much for being here.

Jason Fishman (52:25.698)
My pleasure, thanks for having me. Enjoyed it as well.