Why Isn’t Your Podcast Growing? and How to Fix It with Ads

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (00:01.41)
Hey there. So I am Megan Shields. I am the CEO of Chimehouse Media and we specialize in Facebook and Instagram ad strategies for business owners and business owners with podcasts. So we help them grow their audience and bring more people into their business.

Karin Conroy (00:16.744)
Awesome! This is exciting. Megan, we have kind of I guess not paths, but like sort of parallel paths over, you know, the past few years. And so this is something that I feel like the universe is telling me that we need to talk about. So there is exactly.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (00:36.78)
Yes, I love that for us.

Karin Conroy (00:40.468)
There’s a few things we’re gonna cover today. The title of today’s show is Why Isn’t Your Podcast Growing and How to Fix It. And so there’s a few things, sorry, how to fix it with Facebook ads. So there’s a few things we’re gonna dig into there. First about podcasts and you should be having a podcast. This is one of the greatest thought leadership methods of promotion that is out there, especially for law firms.

And then we’re going to talk about like, happens when like, maybe you have that and it’s just stagnant. so let’s before, cause I started to kind of go down that path already, but before we, I go too far, let’s start first with what happens if you’ve got this podcast and it’s just, you’re getting like three downloads an episode. And it’s like, you know, it’s like you and your mom and like maybe you again on a different.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (01:36.974)
Your bestie, their dog. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (01:38.004)
on a different pattern. Yeah, exactly right. Because let’s be honest, like when I first started this podcast, my goal was to have better than average growth, is still pretty, average growth is pretty small, right? Like a podcast growth trajectory is not like a straight angled line up on average. Most people, it’s a long, slow path, right?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (02:00.0)
Mm-hmm.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (02:04.77)
Yeah, podcast growth is not as fast as I think a lot of people think that it is.

Karin Conroy (02:10.278)
Yeah, right. They look at the big names and think, this is it. Like I’m going to be the next, you know, fill in the blank. I’m not going to say things, quote people, but okay. So, so let’s say you’re facing this wall of growth, lack of growth. What’s the first thing that you would say to a client who’s coming to you to work with you, that they need to take a look at and address that could be the problem.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (02:40.29)
Yeah. So one of the things I want to mention before we kind of dive into that, because I’ve realized that the more I’ve talked about this, that like, it’s kind of like a misconception around podcasting and like a podcast itself is not going to inherently grow your audience. So a lot of people think that like they’re going to start this podcast and then like people are just going to find them and come to their show and consume their content and you know, all of that and like podcasts just don’t work that way.

Karin Conroy (02:56.231)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (03:08.648)
Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (03:08.842)
they, the search engine capability in these players, like while it is there, it’s nothing like Google or something. So it’s like, if you build it, they will come doesn’t work. So you’ve got to have that strategy and go into like, okay, I’m creating this podcast, but like, I also have to have a podcast marketing, like in growth strategy, because it inherently is not going to bring people to you. And then you’re going to spend a ton of time, effort, energy, money in creating this. And that’s why podcasts.

Karin Conroy (03:19.272)
Yeah, right.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (03:38.198)
you know, podcasters burn out because I think that they come into this thinking it’s going to be this giant audience building tool. And unless you have an audience to already plug it into, it’s not. And then they fizzle out, you know. So that’s kind of one thing.

Karin Conroy (03:48.456)
That’s a really good point. Yeah, because I think people think that because it’s there’s a little mystery around podcasting and how it works and, and, you know, how podcasts get found or how, how people even find podcasts themselves. So they think that like, I’m to this podcast out there and all of a sudden it’s going to rank on Google. And it’s like, it’s, that’s kind of a backwards way to think about it, right?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (04:12.162)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, there is a lot of mystery around it with that stuff and just, you know, people don’t really understand how everything works with that. But yes, like there is searchability in the players, like in the Apples and the Spotify’s and like, you know that, but like you got to do work and have a strategy to like make those things work. So on the flip side, it’s then how am going to get people to this show, which a lot of times is where I come in.

Karin Conroy (04:20.649)
Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (04:37.608)
in from a paid strategy standpoint. Because a lot of my clients come to me where it’s like they are getting that slow growth, but they want more. They need a way to get it out there. Because like most people, like I was just at Podcast Movement Evolutions two weeks ago, I spoke there. But one of the like really awesome sessions, I was kind of talking about podcast growth and how people are finding podcasts and like, ding, ding, ding, not a surprise, numero uno, social media. And so it’s like putting your podcasts out there, not only just organically, but paid, like people are

That’s where they’re finding it. And so the organic piece in posting can be difficult again, if you like don’t already have a large audience. So it can be a kind of a slog trying to get people to do that. So to answer your original question and like, you know, things to think about and like getting started and what to kind of have in place, there’s a few things that I typically recommend of like, here’s kind of the baseline foundational stuff you should have with your podcast before.

Like one to optimize the organic stuff you’re already doing, but two, definitely if you’re looking at the paid traffic piece and like one is like you want to have, you want to have a decent amount of episodes, especially from like a paid perspective. This is more specifically on the paid side, like 10, 20 episodes or more. I wouldn’t recommend trying to like get into the paid game with like two or three episodes. Like you’ve just launched your show because the cool thing about podcasting is the binge ability factor. like give people something to binge.

Karin Conroy (06:02.803)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (06:05.71)
Like make sure that there’s a good bank of content in there because one, if you have two episodes and one is on apples and one is on skateboards, but your audience, they don’t really like those two things. Like there’s nothing else for them to consume. It’s kind of a loose example, but you know what I mean? So.

Karin Conroy (06:19.059)
Yeah.

Yeah, but it’s true. And when you think about any podcast that you, like a podcast that especially you talk to other people about, it’s that like you just spent, there’s a couple of them I’m thinking of where it’s like, I just spent a whole bunch of time like down that rabbit hole. And if there is no rabbit hole, like what do you have to talk about? And then how does it get out there? Because there’s just not enough, there’s just not enough meat there.

And the other thing I was thinking about when you’re talking about like when you just have a couple episodes, you’re still getting your feet wet with that. Like I think it took a good six, eight months before I felt like I had a good flow and like, you know, lots of mistakes in the beginning. And this is the case with pretty much any marketing tactic. You kind of try things and then refine them and make it better and go back and say, okay,

Not that. And then it’s as painful as it sounds. You have to listen to your own podcast. Like listen to yourself. And then I listened to myself, you know, in those first few, and I was like, stop doing whatever. Stop doing this. Stop doing that. You know, it’s like, um, but then there was good parts and I’m like, okay, this is the thing I need to do more of. Um, you know, let the, exactly. And it’s like a learned kind of trained behavior where you have to like exercise. So.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (07:32.866)
Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (07:39.938)
Yeah, it’s definitely a skill set for sure.

Karin Conroy (07:50.004)
If you don’t have enough episodes, it’s not gonna be that good. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (07:50.05)
Yeah, you got to do the reps.

Yeah, right. There’s also that. Yeah. And that’s a very good point. I mean, being a podcaster and having your own podcast is definitely a skill set. Like, yes, a lot of it is like learned from what you’re doing, but like you will get better with time. Like nobody’s perfect. Like first episode is like their banger episode of all episodes. Like it’s going to get better, but the more you have in the bank, then like not only is there more content to consume, but it’s also going to be higher quality content if you have a large bank of episodes.

Karin Conroy (08:07.432)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:11.284)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:21.948)
Yeah, totally. Okay, so let’s say I’ve got this podcast and I’ve been doing it for a little while. I’ve got a good number of episodes. feel like I’m ready for these ads now. And I feel like I’m not quite getting the traffic that we all feel like we deserve. So I love this quote. I had one of my favorite SEO people on a while ago and he said, let’s start with this idea.

when it comes to SEO, that when you put up a website, it’s not your God given right to just have people find you. know, like that’s where I think people go wrong with SEO is they just think, I have a website. What do you mean people can’t find it? So like there’s work that needs to be done in order to compete. So what, what does that work in terms of these ads and getting your podcast out there and pulling people in?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (09:17.516)
Yeah. So the thing that’s interesting from like a Facebook ad standpoint versus like the Google aspect is like Facebook ad Facebook. When I say Facebook, I just want to preface this. I’m talking Facebook and Instagram. It’s now meta, but I’ve been doing this so long that I just refuse to call it that. but I am talking about ads on Facebook and Instagram specifically under the meta umbrella. but they are much more passive ads versus Google where like people are actually searching for you.

Karin Conroy (09:33.012)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (09:45.171)
Yes.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (09:45.262)
And so it’s a very different intent of a user that is going to be going to Google or even now chat GPT and searching for specific recommendations versus, you know, social media is a little bit more passive. Like if you think about what people are doing when they’re on Facebook and Instagram, even our own behavior, it’s like, we’re standing in line at Starbucks. We are at the airport. are somewhere like we’re most of the time.

Karin Conroy (09:53.139)
Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (10:10.7)
don’t have the volume on, like we’re just scrolling, we’re watching Netflix, whatever it is, like all of that, you know, is a different user than going into like the SEO. But the ads piece is like, can, from a Facebook ad standpoint, you can put the ad in front of the people that are most likely to be interested in it. So like we can, from a targeting capability perspective, it’s more, it’s kind of like outbound versus inbound, I should say a little bit.

Karin Conroy (10:28.403)
Okay.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (10:36.96)
And so like Facebook, we can pick like, hey, I want to target people that are interested in whatever, Whole Foods and yoga and whatever. I’ll say I’m going for a health conscious client. Then we can put the ads in front of those people. So like if you have a podcast and podcasts are typically specific, like they’re very niche or they should be because if you’re talking to everybody, you’re talking to nobody. So most podcasts have a specific person that they’re talking to. And then we can then make sure that we get the ads in front of the right person to bring those people.

Karin Conroy (10:58.951)
Right.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (11:06.752)
into the show.

Karin Conroy (11:07.836)
Yeah. Okay. So let’s say I am, I’m thinking of an example of a law firm in North Carolina that, that I know well, and they do a lot of DUI. And so they talk a lot about kind of what’s going on in that area. What, how would you target, would you start geographically because their clients are going to be only in that area. They can only help people in that area.

or would you target behavior or, I mean, obviously it’s gonna be different for each client, but in this example, how would you start with targeting?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (11:44.728)
Mm-hmm.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (11:48.578)
Yeah. So the interesting thing with targeting right now in Meta is like they’re leaning much more heavily into their AI and their machine learning. So even if you do choose behaviors, interests, and demographics, most of the time now Meta is going to go outside of that. you know, within the last year I had client accounts where I could turn that feature off that has pretty much disappeared for everybody. it’s more of, there are more suggestions than parameters.

Karin Conroy (12:03.409)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (12:11.057)
Okay.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (12:15.574)
So I would obviously go geographically because legally they can only serve people in a specific area. So we would go geographic. But the other key is making sure, cause like you’re not going to be able to target people who have gotten DUIs. Like that’s just not an option. But we can create like the ad copy and the ad creative, meaning the visuals of the ad, like the graphic and the imagery, and then the copy being like the text with the ad actually says.

Karin Conroy (12:15.719)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (12:42.355)
Uh-huh.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (12:42.574)
Those are more important now than they ever have been because of the changes with targeting. So we can put in like, you know, people interested, like I said, Whole Foods, yoga, whatever, we can put that in there and Facebook’s gonna take it as a suggestion, but they might go outside of that to find other people if they think that it’s gonna enhance, quote, enhance performance. And so that way we need to make sure that like our actual ad is appealing to the correct person that it’s for.

Karin Conroy (13:03.73)
Okay.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (13:10.402)
then that’s why when I said like, if you’re talking to everybody, you’re talking to nobody, that’s really going to kill you from an ads perspective. If you’re like trying to appeal to everybody, because then you’re just going to get a hodgepodge of people and not the right people. So yes, the targeting is important. It’s not nearly as important as it used to be. It’s a lot about the ad and what the ad actually says to speak to the right person to get them to engage with it, if that makes sense.

Karin Conroy (13:10.631)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (13:30.11)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (13:33.684)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I think people put so much weight on that targeting in the past and it felt like that was everything. So, yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (13:39.681)
my God, yes.

That’s how I can always spot a new ad manager because they’re like running an ad. They’re like, download my targeting worksheet. I was like, did you just start your business? Cause you probably did.

Karin Conroy (13:49.524)
That’s awesome. So how much do you do you have a sense for how much of like your control you have over like you choosing that targeting and then how much Facebook kind of runs with it or is it does it it must vary?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (14:08.142)
No, I mean, there’s no like, like, oh, they’re going to follow it 70 % of the time and 30 % of the time they’re going to go out of it. It’s we just don’t know. There’s no way to really know that.

Karin Conroy (14:16.156)
Yeah, yeah, okay. So what other kind of mistakes do you see people making aside from like over relying on the targeting and not really paying attention to your ad, the caption, the graphics, the messaging? What other mistakes do you see people making when it comes to these ads in general?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (14:36.204)
I think overall really it’s a lack of strategy. People will run an ad, for instance, we have a client and we’re running ads for his podcast and he’s like, nobody’s booking me to speak. The ads are going to your podcast, are you talking about your speaking? We’re not even talking about your speaking. You have nowhere anywhere that you’re a speaker, right? So it’s like.

Karin Conroy (14:40.286)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (15:00.936)
That’s the point.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (15:02.54)
Like you would think that that makes sense, but like I think people just get so close to their own stuff that they just don’t realize that sometimes we’re like, well, the end goal, what I really want is this, but they’re running ads for like something else. and so it’s like, really think about the strategy and how that’s going to feed into like what you actually want, because then what tends to happen too is like people like run a traffic campaign, which basically just gets people to a landing page. And then they’re like, well, no one’s booking a call. I’m like, well, that’s not the right type of campaign to use because.

Karin Conroy (15:12.658)
Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (15:30.69)
that is just going to literally get you clicks, it’s not going to get you calls. And so like really thinking about the strategy and what you actually want, because a lot of people just like don’t line it up and then they think they’re going to get something out of a specific campaign that they’re not going to get. And it was never going to be set up for that in the first place.

Karin Conroy (15:40.456)
They don’t go all the way. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (15:47.028)
Well, and I feel like that’s where I’ve seen things go wrong, not just in this kind of ad, but in marketing in general, when I get a new client, where it’s like the previous people they were working with were looking for easy wins with their numbers. And it’s like, we’re going to get you some numbers. And then we’re not going to talk about whether these numbers are numbers you care about, but we’ve got numbers. So I want to kind of dig into that for a minute because I want to talk.

about the different kinds of goals that I see different law firms because there’s so many different things across the spectrum. So for example, one firm that, a lot of times when we’re talking about podcasts, a lot of these firms are coming to me saying, we want to be a thought leader and they’re using that kind of thought leader concept. So let’s use that as one example and then,

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (16:23.0)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (16:41.16)
phone calls and traffic as another example. So the thought leader example is a firm that’s growing. And I’m gonna use an example of a firm we work with where when we started working with them, they did not wanna do specific SEO around their practice areas because their goal was to grow the firm itself. So they wanted to grow the attorneys in the firm. So they wanted to build this brand, they wanted to build their locations.

they didn’t care about the individual cases as much. It was more like, want to build this firm as opposed to another client of mine who is more like a DUI attorney. And they care about transactions. They care about phone calls. They care about when their clients are, you know, coming out of jail and they pick up their mobile phone and they want to find them and call them instantly. So let’s talk about how

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (17:16.663)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (17:38.14)
we would do different kinds of ads for like a branding campaign that’s trying to build thought leadership versus I just want traffic and phone calls.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (17:47.596)
Yeah. So from like thought leadership positioning, brand awareness, like that kind of stuff, if they have a podcast, that would be a great place to insert that because that is such a great thought leadership tool. So a lot of my clients are thought leaders, like they’re speakers, they’re coaches, they have books, you know, those kinds of things. And so

Karin Conroy (17:59.826)
Yes.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (18:10.102)
I’ll position a lot of those things when we are going for the thought leadership model. Like we’re using the podcast, we’re talking about the books, we’re, you know, getting the brand out there. I’m using specific pieces of content that they’re already creating that is like very specific to their audience and really focusing on like visibility, getting people to watch these videos, getting people to engage with this content and getting in front of as many people as like our budget will allow. And so that strategy is a little bit different where it’s more

passive longer game type stuff. Like we’ve done that with a client who was a photographer once and he got like a $5,000 booking in the first day that we started running the ads. Like that wasn’t the goal. It does happen, but like typically with those types of strategies, they’re more longer game kind of things where like people will start to see it then it will start to influence their buying decisions and different things like that. But it’s not like an immediate, I’m buying this product right now. Versus

Karin Conroy (18:41.395)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (18:48.401)
Nice. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (19:05.788)
Right. And I will say for those kinds of clients, when we talk to them about that, we talk about how that I’m buying now approach kind of erodes that brand that we’re trying to build. So the long-term game is, it’s obviously going to take longer, but by not doing it that way, you look kind of cheap and desperate.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (19:27.054)
Well, in something that I talk about a lot when like I do kind of my signature talk at like podcasting conferences or just in general really could go without not necessarily being podcasting, but like only like 2 % 2 or 3 % of people are ready to buy any given time. Like they’re at that point in their in their pain journey or whatever you want to call it in their customer journey where they are aware they are educated and they are ready to purchase. But it’s like, what are you doing for that other 97, 98 % of the people like

Karin Conroy (19:42.086)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (19:50.91)
Yes.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (19:55.47)
You’re just blowing by them because you’re so focused on grabbing the low hanging fruit. But it’s like long-term businesses are built on that 97 % and staying in front of them and building them and growing them and nurturing them. And so a lot of that is already built into pretty much every strategy that I build has that aspect into it is like, okay, great. We’re going to get the low hanging fruit, but like we need to build the awareness and like build your brand and build your thought leadership and position you as the expert.

Karin Conroy (19:58.96)
Now, now, Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (20:23.842)
with this giant group of people that aren’t necessarily ready right now, because that’s what’s gonna build long term.

Karin Conroy (20:27.4)
An example I use a lot, exactly. And an example I use a lot of that are divorce attorneys because a lot of times that decision is not an instant decision. Yeah, so you may be thinking about that it could take six to 12 months before you even decide to pick up the phone. And so during that process, that lawyer just wants to be there and be top of mind and remind and remind and remind.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (20:36.824)
That’s a long process.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (20:54.765)
Yep.

Karin Conroy (20:56.958)
so that once that moment comes, it’s bang. There’s only one thought about who they’re gonna call instead of now starting that search.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (21:03.308)
Mm-hmm.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (21:07.032)
Yep. And there’s this great quote that I saw way back when I started my business and I don’t know who said it. but it’s like, it says like marketing is not making people buy, but being the person they think of when they’re ready to. And that’s literally exactly right. Like you want people to be like, okay, I have this particular problem. I know exactly who solves it. I’m going to call them.

Karin Conroy (21:18.736)
Exactly. That’s it. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (21:27.538)
Yeah. And this is what we talked a lot about the marketing funnel. Last year, I set up all my episodes around kind of things that plopped into the marketing funnel at different points. But this is how you keep your marketing funnel full also in all the different parts of that funnel. So I got derailed a little bit with that, but let’s go over to the other side of that with what if you are really looking to…

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (21:43.405)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (21:54.59)
fill that urgent need and you have that other kind of client who is needing just a flow of traffic from those clients who do have a more urgent need like the DUI attorney.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (22:08.428)
Yeah. So we would run different types of like campaign objectives. So for instance, let’s say like for client aid that we talked about, thought leadership, brand awareness, we would run, you know, engagement campaigns. Let’s just say for like video views, getting people to watch the podcast content or videos that they have, whatever it is versus if now we’re going on the other end where like we want booked calls, like now we’re going to run a lead campaign because we’re generating leads. That’s what we want.

So the campaign objectives tell Facebook what to do. And that’s why it’s one of the most important things when actually selecting. And this is a big mistake I people see, see people make is they just like, well, choose a traffic campaign when they really want to lead them. Like you’re not going to get a lead. It’s just, that’s not what that campaign is for. That campaign objective is for, I should say. So for that person that wants those calls, like we’re going to run a leads campaign.

Karin Conroy (22:49.842)
Yeah. Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (23:01.282)
to be able to make sure that we get leads, but then we have to obviously have that process set up. Like you have to have that foundation of how do you want people to like become a lead? Are we collecting their email addresses? Are they calling you? Like, what does that look like? Because like there’s certain office hours, like, you know, those kinds of things, like having that process from like being able to actually book the call or have the call, thinking about what happens after that is just as important as, you know, the ad and the stuff that comes through for that too.

Karin Conroy (23:13.286)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (23:30.278)
Right, and this is where it comes in where it’s really important to kind of know what works. And so obviously, I can’t think of anybody that I work with that has no experience. they come in to me, they know how the majority of their clients are contacting them. And so like, think about this, you are the expert on this, start writing this stuff down. How do the majority of your clients contact you? Is it by some chat bot on your website? Probably not, but sometimes it is.

Is it through phone or email or the most likely scenarios, but maybe you do some specialized kind of thing where it’s some unique different thing. But make sure that you’ve got an entire system around whatever that best contact method is.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (24:16.694)
Yes, because ads amplify what works. So, and it just brings more people into a process. And if the process, whatever it is, if it’s broken, then the ads aren’t going to be able to work.

Karin Conroy (24:20.254)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:30.228)
No, and oftentimes we’ll hear people blame the ads when that’s not at all what’s happening, but it’s the easy target because it’s like, these ads aren’t working. And it’s like, are they not? Because we got numbers that show something else. Like who’s answering your phone? Are they polite? You know, have you ever done like a secret shopper? Because I have, because when we do local service ads, which is a different topic, but they do record them and we can listen to those.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (24:35.308)
Mm-hmm.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (24:44.467)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Karin Conroy (24:56.532)
And we’ve heard so many things that are problematic there. And you wouldn’t know unless you sit and listen to what that intake process sounds like. Are they putting people on hold for seven minutes while they do who knows what, you know? So like make sure that your whole system is buttoned up. So what I wanted to ask next, okay, so let’s say you’ve done one or the other of these two kinds of campaigns.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (25:00.685)
Yep.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (25:15.747)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:22.036)
And what, I know you have this awesome blog post about what 30 days of Facebook ads can look like. So what’s the normal expectation for, let’s say we’ve got this all set up, we’ve got a system around it, we’re doing everything in the sort of right way. What does that look like?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (25:43.822)
Yeah, so honestly, I hate saying it depends, but it really depends on the budget. That’s a thing I don’t think people realize a lot of times when it comes to paid ads, but you’re buying results, whatever they are. Let’s just pretend you want to get people to opt in on your email list and your cost per opt-in is $2. $2 can only buy so much. It’s like if you go to the grocery store, you have

Karin Conroy (25:47.612)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (26:13.582)
$20 and an orange is $2. You can only get 10 out of that 20. You can only buy 10 oranges at $2 with 20 bucks. It’s the same thing with Facebook ads. So if you have a lead and your cost per lead is $2 and you’re spending $20 a day, you’re only going to get 10. Like it might fluctuate, but you’re buying those results. And so that’s how you math ads in like scale. So I love that you’re talking about like numbers because it’s like

I’m very data driven and that’s what it’s about. like, let’s take a look at the numbers. Cause I at least was on a call with somebody recently and I was like, she’s like, well, you know, this wasn’t really working. And I was like, do you have data on that or is that just how you feel? And she was like, well, that’s a really good point. And I was like, yeah, like so many people like feel like something’s not working. And it’s like, let’s actually look at the numbers and see, is it actually working? Is it not?

Karin Conroy (26:52.477)
Yes!

Karin Conroy (27:00.124)
Yeah. Right. Well, should we talk about budgets first? Cause I have that, I have that down, am I putting that cart before the horse? Should we talk about budgets and then like what that 30 day results? Cause I think I got that backwards.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (27:12.91)
I think I can kind of, yeah, I think I can just like kind of like weave it in. like, let’s just say, I don’t know, on average, like some of my clients are spending roughly usually at least $1,000 a month or more, but we’re focusing on a few different things. So we are focusing on that portion of awareness of like brand awareness and that kind of stuff. Typically, like if we’re looking at like engagements, getting people to engage with content, getting people to watch videos, we can get…

Karin Conroy (27:17.246)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (27:26.151)
Okay.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (27:41.678)
I would say anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 interactions a month on spending $5 to $10 a day on that campaign. You can get a lot for not very much. From the leads perspective, if we’re running ads to build an email list for spending $20 a day usually there, we can get about 10 or so people opting in.

Karin Conroy (27:52.679)
Okay, okay.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (28:09.038)
per day with like, let’s say an average of two to three dollars cost per lead. So we’ll get around that, which then over the course of a month is going to be about three to 400 new people on their email list. And then the podcast, you know, typically if we’re spending about 10 to 20 a day there, we’re going to get anywhere from about a thousand to it can range, but I would say about a thousand to twenty five hundred clicks to the show. So it really depends on budget. You know, the more budget you have, the more

Karin Conroy (28:19.924)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:34.47)
Nice.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (28:39.2)
more activity you’re gonna get.

Karin Conroy (28:40.786)
Yeah, and that’s just one of those kind of things that happens over time where like the more budget you have, you end up, you know, making more money and then, you know, it’s all that sort of a virtuous cycle. But that, that gives, I think people a good sense of like, should, can I just go into Instagram and boost a post for like $5 a couple of a month and expect that like, I’m going to go viral. Let’s talk about that.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (29:05.824)
Yeah, no. The boosting thing is like, I’m pretty sure the boosting button is like Zuckerberg being like, hey, we need a billion dollar cash injection today so I can make more stupid glasses. And so like, can you put that pop up on Instagram to like tell people they can reach a thousand more people for $2 and just have them click it? it doesn’t like, it’s not, if you’re gonna spend money on ads, don’t boost posts. Like actually use ads manager, you’ll get better results, you have better control, there’s better placements and where your ad gets shown.

Karin Conroy (29:12.34)
Right.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (29:35.532)
Like, just don’t boost post, my friends.

Karin Conroy (29:37.808)
It seems like I am picturing these like cartoons that I used to watch where there’d be like a button that’s supposed to do something and then you look behind the kind of the thing on the button is like there it’s not connected to anything like you’re just pushing this sort of pointless button and that’s what I picture with boosting like it’s those like buttons people have on their desk but it doesn’t actually do anything.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (29:56.578)
Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (30:03.552)
Yeah, like I, and I will boost probably like once or twice a year to see if anything has changed with the process to test it out. And last time I did it, it took like days for my ad to get out there, which is crazy because if you use ads manager, it’ll be literally out within an hour or two. But like, and it was just, the results were so terrible. Like the cost per results were so high. The cost for the reach was so much higher than like, if you just use ads manager and run and run the ads. So.

Karin Conroy (30:09.672)
to just test it out. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:17.246)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:31.484)
I think that’s the hurdle though, is there’s people who are scared of that, or they just don’t want to figure that out. And so this is for the people who just want the easy answer, but it’s not an easy answer. It’s sort of a dumb answer with no results. It’s just not worth it. Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (30:40.718)
Mm-hmm.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (30:49.646)
Yeah, no, not not particularly. No, not not if you’re really wanting to implement a paid ad strategy. That’s not the way to go.

Karin Conroy (30:56.764)
Yeah. Okay. So the next thing I had written down was like to ask about what kind of ads, that work the best for podcast growth. But it sounds like when you were talking about that approach and the method that you’re typically, or is, is it true that you’re typically doing a few different types of approaches? Like you’re doing a lead campaign and maybe just an awareness campaign, in at the same time, or, mean, obviously it, it varies, I’m sure for clients and the budget, but

If all things being equal, would that be an ideal scenario where you’re doing a few different approaches at the same time?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (31:32.59)
Yeah, so I generally will create an ad ecosystem. So my signature strategy is my trifecta strategy where I focus on the social growth and awareness, brand awareness, brand building, the podcast growth and the email list growth. And then I customize things kind of outside of that. So I build this whole ecosystem to bring in new people, to generate leads and to also nurture that 97 % and keep people in front, keep them in front of their audience and that kind of thing. like,

From the podcast perspective, I will use like a lot of times it’s video, know, some static imagery kind of works. Well, I don’t love to use cover art. I’ve had one client where the cover art actually was the best performing ad, but she had like a unique cover art picture where like her smile was a banana. So I think like that just like grabs people. And it was a nutrition based podcast, but like leveraging, you know, video a lot of times and I don’t use guest episodes.

Karin Conroy (32:18.516)
Got attention, yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (32:28.568)
typically in ads because I want to position my clients as the expert. We don’t want to pay to advertise somebody else. And so a lot of times like I’ll use video for that and I’m running a lot of different things all at one time.

Karin Conroy (32:28.702)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (32:41.172)
Okay, so you mentioned the email campaign, and this is where I get a lot of pushback from some of our clients where they feel like that’s not the right approach for whatever reason, they just feel like it’s not something they see or hear law firms doing. But I think in some ways, I usually kind of repackage it and talk about it being sort of a lead magnet or a way to grow their email list. But one way or the other,

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (32:44.568)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (33:09.084)
I feel like if you’re not capturing email addresses, you are totally missing out. And what’s a simple way that you’ve seen sort of service-based professional businesses do an email campaign that doesn’t feel kind of weird and feels kind of logical.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (33:26.828)
Yeah, and I would agree with you in that, like, I do think, I think law firms could benefit tremendously, particularly ones in which the buying cycle or cycle or whatever is long, like the divorce attorney, right? Like, usually, like, very seldom people are like, I’m getting divorced today. Boom. You know what I mean? Like, it’s a process, right? Like, unless, you know, something’s happened, but like,

Karin Conroy (33:37.382)
Yeah. Yes.

Karin Conroy (33:42.74)
Right?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (33:48.918)
It’s a process. And so that’s a way to like bring them into your world, but nurture them and also stay in front of them and position yourself as the expert and help guide them, like provide them information. Like here are things you’re probably scared of about, you know, getting divorced. Like, no, they’re not going to, you know, your spouse isn’t going to take all your money. Here’s how it actually works. Like helping ease their fears, like doing those things. And so

like you can build your email list in a couple different ways. Like one, there’s like the newsletter approach, right? So we’ve run ads straight to newsletters that has worked well also, but you actually have to have, like it has to be something people want to like get, like you have to tell them what they’re going to get out it, right? Like if you just run an ad that’s like, join my newsletter, I’m a divorce attorney. And they’re like, I don’t, I don’t know what that means. Like, what am I going to get out of this? Like what’s in it for me? Right? Like, right. What’s in it for me? What can I expect? So from a newsletter perspective,

Karin Conroy (34:14.75)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (34:21.618)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (34:29.128)
Yeah. Why? Yeah. Right. Why would I give you my email? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (34:40.43)
that’s where I would go from a messaging lens. And then there’s the free guide or the free giveaway, not free giveaway, but a free guide. 10 things to think about when you’re getting divorced or something, we’ll just go to the divorce attorney route. Or 10 misconceptions that whatever, whatever, something like that, something that people are gonna exchange their email for to get that information. And it doesn’t have to be a crazy,

You know, it’s not to be an ebook. Like people are like, I’m to make an ebook. like, no one’s going to read that. but like, if you have like a Canva, like you could literally just make an eight, nine, 10 page thing in Canva and it can be a super valuable like PDF. And it’s a great way to like position you as the expert, be able to help your audience and then get them in your world so that you can continue to nurture them. So those are some pretty easy ways to begin building your email list.

Karin Conroy (35:30.067)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (35:34.706)
Yeah, and I often will tell people, like you already know what these, we talk a lot about frequently asked questions when it comes to the website content, because it’s a whole other thing when it comes to SEO and Google and the schema and that whole thing that I’m not gonna get into, but frequently asked questions are really, really important for your website, but you can repackage frequently asked questions.

so that they, so you’re overcoming objections. You show them that you know what you’re talking about, but you already know what these frequently asked questions are. You know what the top three things people ask you when they get on the phone with you. And a lot of times it’s gonna be how much is this gonna cost? How long is it gonna take? And you know, probably one or two other things that I don’t know because I’m not a divorce attorney, but.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (36:10.029)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (36:25.932)
that, you know, start with that and then go out from there and make it a little bit more catchy and add a little bit more of a hook to it. But it doesn’t have to be this weird thing. Like you’re offering a chocolate chip cook cookie recipe when you’re a divorce attorney, it makes no sense. Like it should make sense for what they, they want. yeah, I think that’s, that’s a really good point, but also like make sure you’re not.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (36:42.958)
Right.

Karin Conroy (36:52.06)
like leaving their email address on the table. Because that’s kind of the whole point of gathering this traffic and getting them into your little sphere.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (37:00.878)
Also too, those people can also refer you as well. Even if they don’t need you right now, one of my good friends is a divorce attorney and I refer people to her like crazy, but those people can also become people that refer you even if maybe they’re not ready for your services now either. There’s a lot of different ways that that can be beneficial.

Karin Conroy (37:07.259)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (37:24.094)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (37:27.39)
Totally. Okay, so it is time for the Thought Leaders Library. We have a whole section of the website where all of our guests have mentioned a book that they wanna recommend that you have in your library or take a look at. So Megan, what is the book that you want to recommend for this episode?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (37:46.358)
Yeah, so the book that I would recommend would be Chillpreneur by Denise Duffield Thomas.

Karin Conroy (37:51.092)
Nice. All right. So what is this chill? I love this idea. feel like people get to take a look at entrepreneurship and they just look at the level of stress that they’re going to have. And so this idea of taking it in a chill approach is attractive.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (38:01.23)
Hahaha, yeah.

Yes, that’s what I loved about it because it literally just like, she talks about creating a chill life and creating a business that allows you to be chill and however you want to be chill basically. So for me, it’s like, yes, being an entrepreneur can be stressful, but it’s like taking, like putting things in place to make my life easier.

Karin Conroy (38:18.685)
Nice.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (38:28.07)
and not have it be super stressful because we all don’t have to be Jeff Bezos. There’s a big place between zero dollars and Jeff Bezos. There’s a lot happening there. Having kind of that chill business that allows me to live that chill life, which is why I did this in the first place, just was super relevant to me.

Karin Conroy (38:31.932)
Yeah.

You’re right.

Karin Conroy (38:44.977)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (38:49.202)
Yeah, I feel like I know your story kind of started during COVID and I feel like there is a moment there when a lot of us looked at the way that, and a lot of attorneys contacted me during that time. And it was not necessarily about like building a business as much as it was like supporting this certain kind of life that they all of a sudden were having these epiphanies about. And I think there’s a lot about

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (39:11.052)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (39:15.74)
lawyers and law firms and these sort of traditional law firm method kind of approaches that really doesn’t support a normal life, especially for women. And so that sounds awesome. And I think to kind of take that approach and especially if you’re looking at starting a firm and embedding that into the way that you’re going to build a business, I feel like there’s a much higher rate of not just

monetary success, but just your life in general and mental health and all those good things.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (39:48.266)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. mean, and there’s, you know, God, with AI and platforms and tools, I mean, there’s just never been a better time to be able to really build like a lifestyle business, even if it even is like a more traditional sort of business, like a law form. You know what I mean? Like there’s, I’m sure that there’s ways.

Karin Conroy (40:03.9)
Yes, 100%. Yes, absolutely. And it is, it’s so cool and fascinating to see everything that changes like on a daily basis with the world and the internet and AI and all of this good stuff. Okay, so Megan, we covered a lot. There’s so much to know about Facebook and meta ads and all of this stuff, but let’s say, you know,

We’re kind of closing up the episode and people are kind of simmering. What’s the first thing they should think about doing when they take a look at their firm and their marketing in general and they’re thinking, and let’s assume they have a podcast. What’s the first thing they should take a look at and address?

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (40:52.888)
Yeah. So I think overall, especially if you’re going to be moving into the paid ad space is like, and we talked about this before, like you want to like audit your foundation and make sure that like all of your things are buttoned up. The way in which people reach out to you is buttoned up. There’s not broken buttons and links everywhere and that kind of stuff. Like audit your systems, audit your foundations and your assets, you know, your website, your chat bot, your this, your that, like all the things that you have. And then think about

Like how do I want paid ads to support me and come at it from that way? Think about the strategy and what you actually want from it before you move forward in doing that. But you got to have the foundation in place before you start moving traffic to it.

Karin Conroy (41:36.114)
Yeah, I was thinking recently about someone who had all these things and they were putting together a campaign and then it was all turned on and running. And then we realized that the email follow-up campaign was paused. It was like, come on! These are, yeah, right!

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (41:53.634)
You got to test. also have to test. I probably should have mentioned that. Yeah. You want to definitely test all of your funnels like two or three times before you’re sending anything there. Just in case it’s in test mode or something like that, like go through it as an actual person would because you can catch a lot of that stuff sometimes that you don’t realize.

Karin Conroy (42:00.5)
Yeah, right, like with your own email.

Karin Conroy (42:12.54)
Yeah. All of a sudden you’re like, wait, why? I need to turn this thing on. It’s a little bit like, this on? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, that is the, that is just general marketing advice that you should be doing with all of your stuff anyway. Like I’m on my own newsletter. I need to make sure that when it goes out, like, you know, I had read it, but I need to make sure that I, it went and it worked and you know, it’s just.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (42:17.499)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, yes, Mm-hmm. Tap, tap. Yeah. Triple check that for sure.

Karin Conroy (42:42.068)
It’s also just kind of a peace of mind, like, oh, okay, it’s working, we’re good. Everything was fine. Yes, awesome. Megan Shields is the CEO of Chime House Media. Thank you so much for being here. This was so helpful. And I feel like there was a lot there, but it also seemed like, okay, this is manageable. We can do this and we can get some results and we can make these podcasts have good results in numbers without…

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (42:45.686)
Mm-hmm. Yes, 100%.

Karin Conroy (43:09.778)
you know, having to sit on it for like six years before anything happens. Yeah.

Megan | ChimeHouse Media (43:13.791)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. It was super fun.

Karin Conroy (43:17.268)
Awesome.