Karin Conroy (00:03.299)
Welcome back to Counselcast. Today we are talking about something I think is becoming incredibly important for lawyers right now. Why podcasts are winning in the AI era. As AI floods the internet with more and more content, trust and human connection are becoming more valuable, not less. So everything that I’m talking to every one of these guests that we’re talking about AI about is how to be more human. And that was our last show that Rachel and I were talking about.

But so I wanted to bring Rachel Allen back on the show and we are going to talk about podcasting and human connection and how to do it in a strategic way. And by it, I mean podcasting where you can build a system around podcast, guesting, visibility, and the million dollar element is building your authority. So how to land a podcast. She’s landed more than 50 podcast appearances in a year.

And in this conversation, we are going to break down why podcasts build trust differently than traditional marketing and why most pitches are failing and just disasters. And, then why this matters to lawyers and how you can become more visible and more memorable in a crowded market. So Rachel, thank you so much for coming back.

I also wanted to mention that Rachel is a Council Cast Collaborator because we have more than one episode together now. And so we’ll obviously link that previous episode, which is so great. And we’re talking about kind of in the last one, how to be more human basically. But now we’re going to get more specific into being human, building trust, having that authority and specifically related to being a guest on podcasts like

today, like what we’re doing right now, right? So thank you for being here.

Rachel Allen (01:58.902)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me back. I really appreciate it.

Karin Conroy (02:01.505)
Awesome. the title for today’s show is Why Podcasts Win in the AI Era. So let’s talk about this. Like, first of all, why did you decide to be a podcast guest on, was it more than 50 episodes in or 50 shows in a year?

Rachel Allen (02:18.03)
Yeah. So this actually started, I don’t know, it started as an experiment a couple years ago. I started noticing that like traditional broadcast social media wasn’t working as well as it had been historically. And, you know, it’s my job to try out all these different things and see what’s going to work next. So podcast guesting was something I decided to experiment with. And I enjoyed it so much that I didn’t even look at my metrics, which is very unlike me. I’m like such a metrics human.

Karin Conroy (02:19.311)
It’s nuts.

Karin Conroy (02:43.595)
Yeah. Yeah. When I was writing down like your bio, was like you are, it was, there was a lot of hyphens. It was data-driven human centered marketing, which I love the title. but I, and I love the idea, the balance of like data and human and kind of both sides of the brain and all of this. So that is interesting that like you would do this and, just be just loving it to the point where you’re not paying attention to the data.

Rachel Allen (02:52.526)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (03:07.518)
Yeah, it was very unusual. And it was only a couple of weeks ago from when we recording that I was speaking at podcasting Made Simple Live. And so was putting together my presentation and I started actually looking at the numbers and I was like, a long time ago, I’m doing like 50 pods a year. got 2.5 million views in the last year alone. Like, numbers. And

Karin Conroy (03:19.49)
Wow.

Karin Conroy (03:27.125)
Amazing. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (03:31.5)
I created three years worth of evergreen content and like never even really paid attention and it’s just off a podcast. So I was like, well, I wish I had looked at this a while ago.

Karin Conroy (03:34.197)
my gosh.

Karin Conroy (03:38.839)
Right. Well, okay, so tell me what else that you figured out from those numbers because as soon as you said the 2.5 million views, we’re not talking generic social media views, right? Like this is very targeted. You are going on, you’re not choosing just any random podcast where they’re talking about like fashion or whatever. Like you’re clearly gonna be choosing podcasts that align with the work that you do.

Rachel Allen (04:00.61)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (04:06.742)
Yes. Yeah. I look for, like the first thing I look for in a podcast is honestly the host. I’m like, do I think I would like talking to this person? Yeah. Then I’ll go for it. And then I’ll make sure the show is also a fit too, cause I don’t want to waste their time, but it’s so much about like, it’s been such an exercise in just growing a network of people that I genuinely like talking to so that it doesn’t feel hard. Like it’s not hard to come on and chat with you. I’m just chatting with my friend, Karen. Like, you know, it’s not a big deal.

Karin Conroy (04:17.666)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (04:24.132)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (04:28.151)
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Well, this is the part that I think if you haven’t done podcast guesting or had a podcast that I think a lot of people miss because this is the part that happens when we’re not recording. And this is where the gold is for me. Before I started my podcast, I did a year of guesting also, and I wasn’t planning on starting a podcast because I thought, I’ll just borrow other people’s audiences and whatever. And that’s so much easier. I’ll just show up. They do all the work.

Rachel Allen (04:42.05)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Rachel Allen (04:48.963)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (04:54.062)
Thanks.

Karin Conroy (04:58.153)
And, but then I started talking to people and they kept saying like, you should really have a podcast and whatever. And I am so kind of critical of other people’s marketing. kept looking at the way people are doing it. I’m like, I would never do it this way. I would never. And then I sort of kind of created this list in my mind of like, if I were going to do it, I would. And so eventually I like had it half made in my own mind. but the part I did not expect.

Rachel Allen (05:10.583)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:26.413)
were the conversations before and after, especially after, where it was like, okay, tell me who your clients are. Tell me how our work is complimentary. How can I help you? How can you help me? You know, all that. the conversations were never that obvious. It was much more just friendly communication where kind of like networking, but without having to leave your office. It’s the best. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (05:29.677)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (05:52.106)
Exactly. Right? No outside pants required. We can just have this conversation.

Karin Conroy (05:56.953)
Seriously, like you have no idea if I even have my pajama pants on right now.

Rachel Allen (06:01.086)
Exactly.

Karin Conroy (06:03.821)
Yeah, like I have like I have taken care of the top half, you know, I’ve got like I’ve like brushed my hair and all that. But, you know, it makes it so much nicer. OK, so tell me like, first of all, how did you organize your system in terms of let’s talk about the sort of before the show, how you find and kind of evaluate and and pitch.

Rachel Allen (06:26.903)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (06:33.227)
the during and then the after. So how do you how do you kind of organize the before part?

Rachel Allen (06:38.68)
So the before part, when I first started doing it, I was just looking up like Googling podcasts that were kind of in my area and then straight up cold pitching people via email. And it’s definitely possible to do that. But I found that things really started taking off when I got on Podmatch, which is where we met. I’m pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:45.689)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:54.825)
Yes, yes, 100%. And this is not sponsored, but I, so I had Alex Sanfilippo, who’s the founder of Podmatch on, I cannot recommend this platform enough. It’s Podmatch. It’s basically like a dating website for podcasts, hosts, and guests. And I’ve looked at a lot of other ones. I think, I think this is the best.

Rachel Allen (07:12.759)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I have, I experiment with a lot of them regularly. I have yet to find one that works as well and has the little details taken care of as well as pot match. So yeah, so that’s our.

Karin Conroy (07:23.367)
Yes, totally. We will link to that in the show notes and everything. But this is one major key as a host or as a guest.

Rachel Allen (07:32.777)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, just finding, like having that light pre-vetting, I find, is really helpful. And you know people are there, like, to do this for real and to be serious, you know? As opposed to you can look up, you know, Google, like, marketing podcast or attorney podcast or whatever, and you don’t really know. So I liked, like, I really appreciate that. But I mean, the process is still the same. It’s finding someone that I think that I would have a good conversation with, finding something that I have something to say about. like,

Karin Conroy (07:37.399)
Yes. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (07:42.999)
Yeah, exactly.

Karin Conroy (07:50.638)
Right.

Rachel Allen (08:01.868)
I don’t really know anything about, I don’t know, cigars. Like I was approached by a cigar podcast the other day where they smoke cigars and talk. And I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know. I have nothing to contribute to this conversation. Like I can tell you how to sell the cigar, but I don’t know anything else about them. No, no, no. But if there’s something that I could talk about, sure. You know,

Karin Conroy (08:12.152)
No thanks!

Karin Conroy (08:16.463)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:21.977)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (08:22.414)
And then I start thinking about, how can I be really valuable to this host even if we never have a conversation? Like I want to make it clear to them that I’m here to form a relationship even with the pitch. If it goes no further, still happy that we got connected.

Karin Conroy (08:29.643)
Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Well, and I will say from a host perspective, I get pitched on PodMatch. And the nice thing about that is it all kind of stays within PodMatch. I have to go in to see all of it. But then I also get a bajillion emails, a pitching, and I almost never reply or book an email cold pitch. I think it has happened less than a handful of times.

Rachel Allen (09:00.088)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (09:04.207)
where it was just a really out of the blue, just rare connection where it made sense. And this is, we’re going into the fifth year of this podcast. So we’re talking day after day, getting hundreds and hundreds of pitches in almost numbers. But Pod Match, I can very clearly go in and also I put in my like must haves and you know, this is not gonna work. So for example,

I am not, I don’t have a personality that wants to hear like your life’s journey. That’s just not me. And I just don’t think that’s what the audience wants to hear either. There are so many other podcasts that are going to do that and we can, and they can talk about that. But as soon as you talk about either your life’s journey mindset, which like mindset I feel is, is important. And like, I believe in that, but that’s not what we’re covering on this podcast or any kind of life coachy type stuff.

Rachel Allen (09:44.504)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (09:57.729)
Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (10:01.355)
It’s pass for me. So I can very quickly filter through on PodMatch. And I’m saying all of this so that people can kind of see both sides of like either being a guest or a host and how my thought process works in terms of what I’m looking for. And obviously every host is looking for different things, but I already have a filter in my mind of if I’m looking at someone who sent me a pitch, if I see these things, it’s just a no.

And you should be able to know pretty quickly if you’re looking at a podcast what they are and aren’t looking for. if it’s an, if your stuff is in that no column, just don’t bug them. Like, why would you bother?

Rachel Allen (10:42.434)
Right? Yeah. I never understand that. mean, I like, send hundreds of pitches a year and I never have to bother anybody that’s not like a really good fit for me. There are so many podcasts out there. You don’t have to annoy the people who aren’t a good fit for you. Just don’t do it. Yes. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (10:56.397)
That’s it. Yeah, exactly. And then don’t do it more than once either. Like I will get over and over, especially the emails. Like just checking in, in case you missed this. No, I didn’t miss it.

Rachel Allen (11:08.206)
I hate that. Also, I will do, here’s my public service to everyone. If you take nothing else away from this podcast, here’s how you follow up without being annoying about it. First, don’t send the email if you’re not a perfect fit. Second, follow up after three days to your original email so you’re not like annoying my inbox. And what you want to say is just checking in, did you have any questions for me? Because then I can be like, no, I didn’t. Thank you. Goodbye. Then if they don’t follow up two more weeks, then you say exactly these words.

Karin Conroy (11:09.345)
Yeah, I know.

Karin Conroy (11:29.431)
Exactly.

Rachel Allen (11:33.698)
checking in one last time so that way I’m like, now you’re not going to annoy me forever. That’s how you get people to respond to you and get the clarity of that yes or no, which is what you want.

Karin Conroy (11:35.742)
Yes.

Right.

Karin Conroy (11:43.053)
Yeah, 100%. And I’ve seen a million where they come in back and they’re like getting really aggressive where they’re like, I am very sure that this is a great match. And I’m like, then go get your own podcast. It was a great match. would have replied by now. Move on. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (11:54.197)
Yeah!

Exactly exactly or like they’ll be

Right. Exactly. Or I’ll get ones that are rude. Like someone will message me on Facebook, which I barely ever look at anyway. And then when I don’t respond immediately, it’s like a GIF of someone like tapping their watch and I’m like, are you kidding me? I would never respond to that.

Karin Conroy (12:09.013)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (12:14.527)
no, no, no. I’ve got a handful on LinkedIn too. like LinkedIn is not the place. Go through the proper channels. Don’t try to get on the podcast through LinkedIn. But also it shows a certain amount of professionalism where you’re not annoying. Just don’t be annoying.

Rachel Allen (12:20.216)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (12:24.279)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (12:27.96)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (12:36.822)
Well, and like, Move! Podcast, I’m gonna spend a minimum of 15 minutes speaking with you, and I wanna know that you have enough social skills to where I’m not gonna be trapped on this call being like, my god, can we be done yet? Like, what is happening? Exactly.

Karin Conroy (12:46.703)
Yeah, exactly. I am losing my mind. So tell me a little bit more about your pitch and what you put in there because the next part where it’s almost a sure no for me, first of all, if it’s a cold email, but if it’s a great cold email and the pitch has the things I need in it, basically tell me what you put in there and then I’ll tell you if that’s kind of, you know, I’ll see if it aligns with the things that I’m usually looking for.

Rachel Allen (12:53.422)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (13:01.315)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (13:07.715)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (13:16.354)
Yeah. So the very first thing is it has to be personal. It has to be short and it has to tell you exactly what I’m looking for in like sentence one, because I don’t want to waste your time. So it’s like, Hey, here’s who I, who’s here’s my name. I want to be on your podcast. Here’s why. And that’s one sentence. Then if you’ve gotten that far, I include a couple of talking points that, rotate around something that is true about me. it’s like, Hey, I’m a marketer. I’ve been doing this for 18 years, blah, blah, like whatever basic thing. So you can immediately sort me.

Karin Conroy (13:24.643)
Yes. Yes.

Karin Conroy (13:42.304)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (13:45.507)
I include interesting and relevant stories. So I’ve got this like crazy business startup story, stranded myself in Hong Kong, whole thing. So you can be like, this person actually like has done something with their life. Intriguing. And the third thing I include is something that I truly believe. So I truly believe words make worlds. Nobody else is going to come at you with that. And all of those things, if that’s a fit for you, it’s an absolute yes.

Karin Conroy (13:53.785)
That would be funny to hear and maybe we could talk about that. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:04.565)
Nice. Yes.

Karin Conroy (14:11.385)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (14:11.394)
But if it’s not, it’s a clear no. And like, you want the no just as much as you want the yes.

Karin Conroy (14:16.238)
100%. So that is exactly what I’m looking for because, and like, this is not scripted. Like we didn’t talk about this before, but like, it sort of sounds like a sponsor post all of a sudden, but it’s not. But the first thing I’m looking for is like, okay, do we have something to talk about? And so like your story 100%, like I already want to know like what happened in Hong Kong, you know, and, and then I want to know a little bit about you and kind of like what your philosophy approach is.

But then the main thing I think most people miss that I’m looking for is who are you? And like, how can I verify that you are? So I want at the very least a link to like your LinkedIn, or if it’s a cold email, send me a one page, which is if you’re a lawyer and you don’t know what that is, it’s basically just one sheet, like a PDF or an attachment.

Rachel Allen (15:03.608)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (15:09.965)
that gives me, and it’s nicely designed, and it gives me a picture of you, some links, maybe a handful of talking points, and a few facts about you. But it’s all on one sheet, and I can glance at it and be like, okay, they are on top of this. And I’ve got the information I need. They are who they say they are. They didn’t just start doing this two weeks ago, and we’ve got something to talk about. And I would say…

Rachel Allen (15:26.446)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (15:35.693)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (15:37.647)
98 % like I said of my cold emails are no’s and they’re usually because they’re missing one of those three things.

Rachel Allen (15:41.55)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. And I think it’s what is frustrating to me from the guest perspective is how little people actually try. I have seen so many other people be like, put me on your podcast. And I’m like, How? I don’t get that.

Karin Conroy (15:51.381)
Yes, totally. Yes, 100%. Well, and here’s the other part. Like what we haven’t even talked about is a lot of times these are PR firms. So they’re PR firms and they’re repping someone, which can be a good system. Like it can be a good, we do this for some of our clients because if you’re a lawyer and you need this done and you don’t have time, but make sure you’ve hired someone who…

Rachel Allen (16:03.629)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (16:19.673)
knows what they’re doing. I mean, does this need to be said? This is kind of sad. But I will say the amount of PR firms that are sending me garbage pitches that don’t have one of those three things, they’re basically really aggressive and they have one or two sentences that says, I have someone for you. Their name is like Joe Smith, nothing else. I’m not going to reply and beg you for that information. It’s just going straight in the trash.

Rachel Allen (16:21.42)
gets you.

Rachel Allen (16:31.872)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (16:42.52)
get that. Yeah.

Right. you have someone for me? I feel so honored. I was talking with Terry Holland, who does Success in Mind the other day, and she was telling me about the worst pitch she ever got. And it started off with, I’m not going to pretend I’ve listened to your podcast, Terry. What?

Karin Conroy (16:51.148)
Lucky!

Rachel Allen (17:07.534)
Can you imagine?

Karin Conroy (17:11.563)
so funny because that was one of the next things I was going to say is that I will say in Podmatch, lot of people, especially the PR firms will say, we’ve already listened to this episode. And sometimes I can see it’s kind of AI drafted. But if they actually have listened to the episode, I like that. I actually, I’m like, okay, thank you for taking the time and giving me one more download. That is a nice little thing to add as a bonus. That is not going to get you on the show, but it’s a nice starter.

Rachel Allen (17:20.748)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (17:25.015)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Allen (17:41.706)
It is, and I’ll put the caveat on there of if you’re going to say that, don’t just pull something from the show notes and be like, I loved how you insert bullet point from the show note. Like say something that you personally got out of it to show that you actually listened to it.

Karin Conroy (17:49.407)
Right? 100%. Because like I said, the most common thing is that, know, Claude or ChatGPT drafted that for you. And I can tell, like, can see that, like, you’re saying that you listened to it. Did you? Because I think Claude just pulled that out. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (18:01.676)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (18:08.206)
Great. Exactly. Or it’s super generic. Like, I love how you talk about marketing and I’m like, wow, you must know me. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (18:14.679)
Marketing for Law Firms, which is like the subtitle of the, yes, right. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so tell me more about this like guessing system that you have. So we just basically touched on the before part, like sort of the pitching and whatever. What’s the kind of during system and the post system, after I guess.

Rachel Allen (18:27.298)
With it.

Rachel Allen (18:32.014)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so the hearing is you want to show up and have those three talking points that you thought about top of mind because that’s how you pitched yourself. You don’t want to show up and then be like, oh, by the way, actually, you know, raise llamas or whatever, you know, like don’t surprise the host. Show up as you said you were going to. And then I like just forget about everything else. Like don’t script stuff. Don’t come in and like have I must get these seven things in. That’s weird. Just talk to person. It’s not a performance.

Karin Conroy (18:45.389)
I wanted to… right!

Karin Conroy (19:00.225)
Yes. Yeah. It makes it super boring too, because there’s times when all of a sudden all my eyes will glaze over and it’s a clear, like, I know we’re talking about the sort of pitching process, but don’t pitch on the show. Like don’t have a, and a scripted pitch is even worse. And we’re all of a sudden, like the guest will sort of launch into something and I’m like, okay. Like this is super boring. Nobody wants to hear this.

Rachel Allen (19:14.894)
my

Karin Conroy (19:26.763)
I want to hear why, whatever this thing is that you’re trying to pitch, I want to hear why, what’s important. You can do it in a more strategic way that’s going to be better to listen to.

Rachel Allen (19:27.022)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (19:31.362)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (19:35.5)
Yeah. absolutely. And like nobody wants to feel like they’re being sold to, even if that’s the point of the podcast. I’m going on one in a couple of weeks where it’s literally like come pitch your business. I’m to go tell a story because we like stories and that’s what I want to listen to. You know, so yeah.

Karin Conroy (19:41.292)
No.

Karin Conroy (19:46.095)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. 100%. And people listening know, like you’re not coming on just to hang out with me. Like, obviously we both have businesses. I don’t have this podcast just to like hear myself talk. Obviously this is to, you know, as part of my business and people understand that inherently, but they’re not going to sit and listen and come back.

Rachel Allen (19:56.975)
Great. Great.

Rachel Allen (20:06.295)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (20:11.479)
you know, episode after episode, if all I’m doing is continuing to talk about the services I offer, I have to give them something valuable that is interesting that they want to hear. And then they recognize, okay. So now this leads me into the work part, but that is not what you start or like harp on.

Rachel Allen (20:16.792)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (20:29.059)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (20:33.304)
of course. Yeah. And it’s super obvious too. think people think they’re being like sneaky about it, but they’ll do things like, you know what that reminds me of my service that I offer. I’m like, my God, please stop talking. Why are we doing this?

Karin Conroy (20:38.006)
No!

Karin Conroy (20:43.191)
Exactly. Yeah, and all of a sudden you feel like you’re in an MLM where all of a sudden you’re like, I, are you going to try to sell me candles or vitamins or something?

Rachel Allen (20:48.654)
Yeah!

I have all the essential oils I need, thank you.

Karin Conroy (20:57.313)
exactly. I’m good. I’m good. And also I don’t want to create wealth through my network of friends and family. Okay. So you get on a podcast. You come with your three main points just in your mind. And I strongly believe in this idea of just having sort of a very rough outline. And usually when I’m putting together a show,

Rachel Allen (21:05.472)
Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Allen (21:24.162)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (21:26.535)
and I’ve gone between chat, GPT and Claude that helps me put together the outline. And, I find that Claude ends up getting way too wordy and I’m like, stop, stop, stop, stop, pull it back. first of all, I have to be able to kind of keep it over to one side and sort of scan while we’re talking. And I don’t want you to script it. Like just give me some topics and like, let’s talk about this thing and whatever. And then I’ll, I’ll fill in the blank.

Rachel Allen (21:30.913)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (21:36.056)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (21:45.761)
Yeah!

Rachel Allen (21:52.653)
Right. Yeah. And I think that’s a good approach to have as a guest as well. Most hosts are really awesome at what they do, but I’ve been on several where I’m like, you have no idea where this is going. So I need to kind of move us along. Yeah. So having some kind of idea of like, here’s what would be nice to talk about. Here’s some jumping off points. Here’s what we ask if like the conversation gets really dead for some reason. I’ve had that happen once or twice in the years.

Karin Conroy (22:04.879)
making this show for you. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (22:22.536)
And before I knew what I was doing, was like, come on, host, ask me a question. But I would have hosts be like, so what do you want to talk about now? And I’m like, OK, I should come more prepared for this. And now I know how to handle that. But having this a general outline, think, is a great idea.

Karin Conroy (22:27.724)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (22:31.951)
Karin Conroy (22:36.311)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, totally. I find it hard to believe that like you hit those, it’s gotta be on the host’s part, like the dry points because like, the next thing I was wanting to ask about was sort of these surprise moments and like, how do you add, because what I want to reference back is that people need to go back and not just listen, but watch our first episode because we had this moment, you know where I’m going, where Rachel’s cat,

Rachel Allen (22:46.968)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (22:54.114)
Very good.

Karin Conroy (23:10.093)
comes out of left field and jumps on her computer and like, it looks like the room explodes. It is one of my all time favorite. Yes, like we had to start over and I’m like cry laughing. It’s hilarious. But it’s one of those moments that first of all, not everyone is gonna have the same reaction as I did. But.

Rachel Allen (23:18.484)
Yes, yeah, she knocked the whole thing over.

Rachel Allen (23:25.608)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (23:35.702)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (23:39.695)
Okay, so, but it was amazing. And honestly, like, what is your cat’s name? Because I don’t even, okay, yes, I did know that. Okay, because I feel like Ellie is also sort of a Council of Cals collaborator because she is, know, her, she’s a big part of this show. And so how, first of all, what do you have, what do you do in moments that are probably not quite as aggressive as that?

Rachel Allen (23:42.124)
Yeah, it was fun.

Rachel Allen (23:53.837)
Nice.

Rachel Allen (23:57.985)
Yes

Karin Conroy (24:08.963)
but also like how do you create moments that are sort of fun and interesting and surprising that make the show way better without, like if you don’t, if we didn’t have that cat moment, my life would be different for it.

Rachel Allen (24:20.653)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (24:26.926)
I think back to it all the time.

Karin Conroy (24:30.617)
You

Rachel Allen (24:32.174)
So as far as how you handle those moments, I think people go in really white-knuckling their way through interviews sometimes, and they’re like, but if it doesn’t work out, oh, if something happens, oh, oh, oh. And I’m like, look, it’s a podcast interview. It goes on the internet. Who cares? It’s not a big deal. So approaching it with this isn’t being livestreamed to 10 billion people at once, it doesn’t really matter. Most hosts are going to be chill. And if they’re not, you probably didn’t want to know them anyway.

Karin Conroy (24:40.386)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (24:47.981)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (25:00.534)
Right.

Rachel Allen (25:01.582)
just rolling with it. mean, the other day I even like stumbled over my own business name at the end when I was pitching on a podcast and I was like, whoa, there’s a real pro marketer move. Yeah. And just being like really honest about where you’re at and be like, well, that was dumb. All right, moving on.

Karin Conroy (25:06.671)
I am tired!

Karin Conroy (25:17.547)
Yeah. Honestly, like to go back to the title of our last show had something to do with about being more human. And I just think that I am almost never going to edit these moments out. Like I stumble over stuff all the time. The other thing that happened that I will never forget kind of recently is I had this like dry cough from one of my dirty kids and I, it wasn’t just like a little tickle. All of a sudden I went into a

Rachel Allen (25:32.173)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (25:40.728)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (25:46.969)
full coughing fit that lasted like four minutes. It was with this guest and he was like, I don’t know what to do. He was so, and he felt so bad. He’s like, do you have any honey in your house? I’m like, yeah. And I mean, it’s one of those moments where like, we are not in the same room. We’re not even in the same location. So he was just like, I’m so sorry. But like,

Rachel Allen (26:02.286)
That’s so sweet.

Rachel Allen (26:08.046)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (26:13.793)
you

Karin Conroy (26:16.354)
things happen, like, and we’re human. And honestly, like, obviously I cut that out. didn’t, I’m not gonna leave like three and a half minutes of me coughing in the middle of the show, but I mentioned it and I said, like, if you’re watching this on YouTube, you will see that my eyes are still like tearing and I’m okay. Like, I’m not crying.

Rachel Allen (26:36.098)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (26:39.171)
but it makes the show better. I really believe that it makes you seem more human, it makes you seem more real, and people connect to that way more. then when you own, honestly, I believe this in parenting too. When you make a mistake, because nobody is a perfect parent or human, you own it and then move on and hopefully you can laugh about it.

Rachel Allen (26:42.21)
does.

Rachel Allen (26:53.677)
No.

Rachel Allen (27:02.892)
Yeah, exactly. if we want to kind of tie this directly into why this is good for lawyers specifically, think if you’re in like a really high status job, And a job where people are like, they’re fancy, maybe they’re scary, whatever it is, that people have been stereotyped. Yes, it’s such a good way to be human. actually, when you do that, it’s called occupying a happy high status position.

Karin Conroy (27:09.165)
Yeah, that would be a good idea.

Karin Conroy (27:19.011)
Yes. Yes, intimidating.

Karin Conroy (27:31.119)
that’s nice.

Rachel Allen (27:31.151)
And so, yeah, I know a little bit of like networking psychology. So it’s like, think about how amazing you would feel if, for example, I don’t know, whatever, whoever you ever crush on, George Clooney or whatever, came up and was like, Karen, I love your podcast. And just kept on going, you know? You would feel amazing. Right? Just like, did agree to that? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And even if like, even if they were like,

Karin Conroy (27:47.823)
I’m just gonna sit with that for a moment and imagine George Clooney on Council Gast. my gosh, yes, I am here for that. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (28:00.823)
It was so nice to meet you and then they left, right? And that was all that happened. You feel amazing and they’ve uplifted you by saying like, hey, we are equals here. I get you. I feel you, you know? And it’s the same thing. If you come in with mistakes and you’re like, all right, that was dumb, you know, but you’re not stressed out. You don’t care. That shows your confidence. It shows that they can trust you and it shows that you’re human in a way that they can relate to.

Karin Conroy (28:02.691)
Yeah. Yes. Yep.

Yes.

Karin Conroy (28:15.907)
Yeah, move on. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:24.621)
Yeah, and think about your potential clients seeing that and realizing, this guy is awesome or this woman or whoever. And they’re a little bit weird and they make mistakes too. And especially in certain practice areas where people are coming to you with their mistakes and the things that they’re maybe embarrassed about. And then they like hear you kind of mispronouncing your firm name or something and laughing about it. And they’re like, okay, all right.

Rachel Allen (28:35.598)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (28:42.158)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (28:49.838)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:52.783)
Obviously, you don’t want to go in and create a disaster, but at the same time, be human. think that’s just important.

Rachel Allen (28:58.211)
of course not.

Right. Right. Yeah. You don’t have to perform it. You just have to go in and like whatever happens, you’re going to make mistakes. You don’t have to try, you know, like it’s gonna happen.

Karin Conroy (29:08.559)
Yeah, exactly. Okay. So let’s talk about, um, like, why is all of this visibility, the podcast appearances and showing up, why does this matter? Especially when it comes to like, you know, the world of AI. And I really believe like, this is becoming such a key differentiator. It’s so good for, um, you know, AI and visibility and search and all that. And there was something I wrote down, um, it’s,

Is it becoming more important than SEO basically? And who knows?

Rachel Allen (29:43.535)
Yeah, so I think that both of those things, SEO and GEO, which is the technical name for like AI, SEO, although we’re still deciding what to call it. I think both of them are going to be important for quite some time. I’m seeing a lot of people be like, I don’t even care about my Google results. And I’m like, well, that’s a bit silly. Yeah. A lot of people are looking for answers from AI. And as you said, this is such a good way to improve that because they’re so indexable.

Karin Conroy (29:48.479)
A E O

Karin Conroy (30:00.649)
Yeah, I’m not gonna go that far.

Rachel Allen (30:12.684)
like highly integral, even if the podcast host doesn’t do all the stuff about like the show notes and sharing it a bunch of places. Because the audio is there, because you’re there, it’s super searchable. And so it increases your chances of, you know, when they ask who should, what lawyer should I go to? You know, what copywriter should I go to? It really increases the chances that it’s going to spit out your name because you’ve given it the information. And since you follow those delightful little three talking points and said them over and over and over and over over again,

Karin Conroy (30:12.942)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (30:39.151)
Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Rachel Allen (30:41.558)
It’s like, well, we have 200 sources saying that Rachel Allen is blah, blah. So it must be true. You’re building your own marketing in this.

Karin Conroy (30:47.629)
Right. Exactly. And I will add, let’s say that you are from us actually thinking of like doing their own podcast and not just doing the podcast, guesting. If you’re going to all of the efforts to do this, do all of the things, make sure that you are recording both the video and the audio, because like, why not? Like we’re just sitting here chatting and I’ve got the video and the audio.

Rachel Allen (31:08.835)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (31:12.483)
happening at the same time. So I’m gonna put it on both YouTube and on the podcast networks and then make sure you grab that transcript because the software I use does it for you and make sure you put that on your website because that’s so much good content and you just copy and paste. this stuff is becoming easier and easier to put out there. So if you’re looking at creating your own podcast, make sure that you get

Rachel Allen (31:20.323)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (31:26.147)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (31:34.926)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (31:41.463)
the mileage for all of the effort that you’re putting in.

Rachel Allen (31:45.827)
Yeah, exactly. And I think it’s daunting at first, but as you said, none of it’s hard. It’s just making sure you got all the steps. So if you can find like, or make your own checklist of, I need this to happen with every episode, then it just becomes a process. And it’s not like, I was going to put it here and here. You know, like it just becomes what you do.

Karin Conroy (32:01.111)
Yeah, right. Yeah, no. Yeah, create checklists. Checklists are that run my life basically. Yeah. Okay. So imagine I’m talking to an attorney and I’m talking about podcasting or let’s just keep it with guesting, I think, because that’s a more likely scenario for most people. And they have a lot of hesitations. Like, what are the things that you say in terms of like,

Rachel Allen (32:07.406)
same.

Rachel Allen (32:23.672)
Mm.

Karin Conroy (32:27.939)
kind of getting through some of those hurdles and the hesitations people have about it.

Rachel Allen (32:32.29)
Yeah. Well, the first thing I would always say is if you genuinely in every fiber of your being hate the idea of this, don’t do it. I’ve seen people force themselves into it and it’s like, hello, I’m on the podcast. it’s awful. Don’t do it. They look so miserable.

Karin Conroy (32:41.131)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (32:49.167)
We all know what this is like. It’s like having a substitute teacher show up and like try to talk to you. My kids are doing like the state testing this week. It is, it’s like state testing combined with a substitute teacher. It’s just like miserable life. know, nobody wants to listen to you if you don’t want to be doing this, right? So yeah, 100%. If you, if you really absolutely don’t want to do it, don’t.

Rachel Allen (32:52.302)
No.

Rachel Allen (32:57.709)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (33:07.946)
Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. But if there’s a little part of you that you’re just like, I don’t know, this is a little bit intimidating, or I don’t really know what it would do for my practice. Then I would really encourage you to explore it because nothing builds rapport as quickly as someone listening to you, having you literally in their ears. We form these, this sense of familiarity and trust with people. And a lot of what’s happened in my business is since I’ve been doing this for several years now, I’m booking clients off a podcast I did like six years ago and forgot I was even on.

Karin Conroy (33:41.005)
Yes, same.

Rachel Allen (33:42.583)
And the cool part is they’re just like, me a cart. I don’t need a sales call. I don’t need to know anything. I’ve already heard you. We’ve already had a conversation. I feel like I know you. So it’s super powerful pre-selling process. And it also helps you vet people because if someone is willing to listen to you talk for hours and hours and hours and hours, they’re probably a good fit. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:46.296)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (33:51.545)
Yep.

Karin Conroy (34:02.543)
They’re already sold. They come to you already sold. And like, I’ve had people say, like, I feel so lucky to even talk to you. I’m like, really? What? What’s happening? And they’ll say, yeah. And I’m like, I’ve been listening to your podcast. As soon as they say, I’ve been listening to your podcast for either a bunch of episodes or for a while now, I’m like, oh, okay, let me sit down and get serious. Cause this is a good call. Yeah. Yeah. So, so tell me, and the, I know what I was going to say. I knew I had a good thing.

Rachel Allen (34:10.23)
No! I had somebody in here!

Rachel Allen (34:24.462)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Karin Conroy (34:32.565)
most lawyers already know that they can talk and they have a lot of things to say. So don’t lean back on this. I don’t know what I’m going to talk about. You know, you already know, you just need a, you need a couple good questions and prompts and maybe you need to sit with, you know, Claude or chat GDP2 and like talk through what you might want to focus on, but you’ve got stories. You already know what to talk about when it comes to like the, your

Rachel Allen (34:38.691)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (34:42.37)
Yeah, you do this all day long.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (34:55.031)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (35:01.111)
You don’t want to totally focus just on your practice area. Don’t go that narrow. You want to focus on pain points, the things that your clients are asking you, the work that you’ve done. Maybe you’re involved in the community, that kind of stuff. You want to talk about the things that that podcast is talking about too, whatever the topic of that is. But just in those four or five bullet points that I listed, I guarantee you already started to formulate.

Rachel Allen (35:04.066)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (35:14.328)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (35:19.715)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (35:27.169)
paragraphs of things that you would say and you don’t need that much. I’m telling you, these podcasts are like 30, 40 minutes long. It’s not, you don’t need to have that much to say. You just need to have some good sort of highlight points.

Rachel Allen (35:35.459)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (35:42.029)
Yes, I think that’s such a good way to describe them. And I think people get hesitant because they feel like they have to go on and like somehow put on their sales face. And I’m like, please don’t. Like all you have to do is be able to say your website name. That’s it. You don’t have to do anything more than that.

Karin Conroy (35:50.089)
No. Yeah. No, no.

Karin Conroy (35:57.179)
Right. Right. And maybe have some good stories and like talk basically about like the things you know, like the work that you’ve done in whatever kind of capacity works for like the privacy issues. Yeah. So what other kinds of, I’m trying to think of like what other kinds of issues or concerns people have with podcasting that come up. What do hear people say?

Rachel Allen (36:02.188)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (36:06.936)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (36:23.532)
Well, with lawyers specifically, know worries about compliance with marketing is a thing. Like staying on the good side of the ABA, yeah. So I teach CLEs on this, but the really short version is as long as you are not making promises that you can’t keep, you’re not describing yourself as something that you can’t back up, and you’re not aggressively going out and being, like knocking on people’s doors and annoying them into working with you, you’re probably good.

Karin Conroy (36:27.695)
Oh yes yes yes. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (36:47.673)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (36:49.11)
Like there’s a little more nuance to it, but like you really don’t need to worry that you’re going to accidentally fall into this. People who get on the wrong side of that are doing it like, you know, with full knowledge. So yeah, it’s not worth it.

Karin Conroy (37:01.003)
Yeah, the last thing I was just thinking about talking about too is, and I think I had this in my mind way back when I first started, is imagining that it’s like huge, you know, very well known podcasts or nothing. And that is not the right approach. It’s, you definitely don’t need to be on like, you know, the most popular like Brene Brown podcasts.

Rachel Allen (37:18.551)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (37:29.262)
It’s not real.

Karin Conroy (37:30.939)
at all for this to work. And so think of this kind of re erase that part of your brain in terms of like, we have to go for like broadcast giant, you know, well known podcasts to get millions of downloads, or it’s not worthwhile. And that is not true at all. How do you kind of look at the approach in terms of like figuring out

the size of the podcast and the amount of downloads and whether it’s going to be worthwhile.

Rachel Allen (38:05.014)
Yeah. So I’ve spoken on podcasts of like all sizes, know, to millions of downloads to like three downloads. And I don’t really care because for me, the downloads aren’t the main thing. It’s the relationship with the host and then any way that I can like, like the relationship of people one level out from them, because that’s who you’re really accessing. Another thing, particularly with like firms and service providers is you can strategically podcast guests on topics that you know,

Karin Conroy (38:12.335)
Yeah.

Yes.

Karin Conroy (38:24.365)
Yeah. Yep.

Rachel Allen (38:34.518)
your potential clients are interested in, and then you have a lovely playlist to send people when they’re like, you know, I’m interested in estate planning or whatever. great. I spoke about that to 10 different people. Here you go. So that’s more important to me than download size. Like, it’s fun to have the big numbers. It’s cool to be like, millions of people, blah, blah. But like, I don’t really care. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:36.663)
Yep. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:44.45)
Yes, yes.

Karin Conroy (38:50.829)
Yeah. But that’s not the point. Yeah. And that, and it’s not the point, not because we’re trying to say like, you know, don’t bother with that, but it’s also not what works. Like what, what we’re seeing in our experience that works is that the right people will find you and you’re really filtering to this very targeted, group of people who are searching for this very, very specific topic and they will find you. And so you’re the, the numbers,

Rachel Allen (39:02.413)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (39:20.545)
are somewhat misleading because even if they’re small, they’re good. It’s a much better group of results than just this broad Google Ads approach to anyone. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (39:33.45)
Exactly. And you want to look for people who have that really good engagement and like relationship with their audience. That’s so much more important than, I get, you know, 5 million downloads, but like two people email me.

Karin Conroy (39:44.429)
Yes. Okay. So you do a workshop about, tell me about the workshop. Cause I don’t want to try to like fill it in and get it wrong.

Rachel Allen (39:50.528)
Yeah.

Yeah. So it’s called profitable podcast pitching. It’s about everything that we’ve talked about here. So basically the way I do anything in my business is I develop a system, I hone it, I’d use it for clients, and then I teach other people once I know I’ve got it really working. Isn’t it so nice?

Karin Conroy (40:06.167)
I do the same thing. Yeah, because like, how can you talk about something if you haven’t tried it yourself? Yeah.

Rachel Allen (40:11.274)
Exactly. Yeah. So what it is, is the exact system that I use, what I do before, during, and after podcast interviews to make podcasts, guesting an actual sustainable pipeline for my business. It’s one of the main marketing things that I do for myself now. It’s one of my primary sources of recurring referrals, and it’s just a lot of fun. Like it’s just a cool way to do it. So that’s what I’m doing.

Karin Conroy (40:31.297)
It is fun. Totally. I also will add that I just really firmly believe that this is the future of content. Like the people want to see, so after we’re done with this episode, we obviously release the full episode, I pull out all the clips. Everybody wants to see the little clips and the real shorts, whichever platform you’re on, but the short videos.

Rachel Allen (40:41.645)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (40:56.463)
So we use all of that. We obviously do a bunch of like blog content and the traditional sort of written content But this one episode will create so much content and it’s unique This is not something people can copy obviously. I mean they could try but it would be really weird You are not on this episode and you’re doing what So it’s it’s unique it’s unique to

Rachel Allen (41:15.416)
Very off-putting.

Karin Conroy (41:26.005)
you and I in this moment, in this conversation, and it does really well. So on top of all of those other business development reasons, this is the future of content. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (41:39.053)
Yeah, absolutely. that’s what we’re seeing. mean, particularly in response to a lot of the AI marketing that’s working well for lower cost offers for higher cost, high trust offers, like legal services, you people want to see that you have been somewhat inconvenienced in getting to them. They want to show you to show that you care enough to show up in real life and do something that’s like a little bit annoying and

Karin Conroy (41:55.255)
Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (42:02.351)
Yeah, and honestly, in the legal industry, is still a little bit, you’re a little advanced. you the legal industry is usually a little behind. So if you’re doing this right now in any other industry, this is sort of, you know, par for the course. But in the legal industry, it’s showing that you’re sort of ahead of the curve on it also. And so there’s people who and clients who care about that saying, oh, like, look at that. They’re very like, you know, tech forward or whatever they think of it.

Rachel Allen (42:20.046)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (42:26.616)
Right.

Karin Conroy (42:30.795)
It just makes it look like you care, you’re really trying to reach out, you’re putting the content out there, and you’re kind of like fancy and modern. Okay, so it is time for the book review section. I know you have a really good one. I want to hear more about this book, but what’s the book that you want to recommend for the library today?

Rachel Allen (42:39.97)
Exactly.

Rachel Allen (42:50.158)
So the book I’m recommending is called Indirect Work. It is a tiny little pamphlet of a book. I want to say it’s like 70 pages or something. But it completely deconstructs my thinking every single time I work my way through it. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (42:54.714)
I love that. nice.

Karin Conroy (43:02.676)
what? Okay, so what is it? Because I have not read this. I’ve never even heard of this book.

Rachel Allen (43:06.786)
Yeah, so it’s, I believe it’s like marketed as a leadership development book, but it’s by a woman named Carol Sanford. And she talks about how we often think of change or influence kind of in like a linear A to B fashion, right? So the metaphor she uses is a pool table. Like I hit the ball with the cue, it hits the other ball, it goes in, I get a result, right? And she’s like, sure, but what if you could move the whole table? And so, exactly.

Karin Conroy (43:31.119)
yes. And this, think that is so true because I see a lot of other agencies talking about like these metrics and the marketing metrics and whatever. I’m like, there’s a lot of marketing that you cannot measure. And anyone who is saying that they have like perfect metrics is not telling the truth and it’s not accurate.

Rachel Allen (43:37.998)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (43:44.867)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (43:51.053)
I mean.

Rachel Allen (43:56.527)
You’re lucky. You’re a hero.

Karin Conroy (43:59.439)
So, you think about how your clients are coming to you. They may ask their brother, and then they may go to your website, and then they may click over to some social media account, and then they may see a billboard. Half of those things are not measurable.

Rachel Allen (44:15.956)
Exactly. And that’s what the whole focus of her book is, is on these like non-measurable, invisible forces that do shape all of our outcomes and how you can actually influence those and get a sense of them. Because they’re like, shaping what’s happening anyway. So what if you could control them?

Karin Conroy (44:25.089)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (44:29.177)
Yeah. Yes.

Yes, and the fact that it’s a handful of different things that are all leading a person to you. It’s never just like, you know, I saw a Google ad, I clicked on the ad, and then I, you know, made a phone call. Like, it’s almost never going to be that. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (44:39.383)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (44:47.246)
And people it like it’s so frustrating to me when I see people like try to teach marketing funnels in that way of like we’re gonna make a marketing machine and whenever you put this in this out and I’m like they’re lying to you. It’s a garden. It’s a machine. That’s just not the way

Karin Conroy (44:57.673)
Yes.

Right. Yes. I love that. A garden, not a machine. And which is not to say that you shouldn’t like do these things, but it’s like, look at the broad picture and recognize that there’s a lot of different things happening. Our decisions are complicated, especially for this kind of high level, you know, legal need, service work, that kind of stuff. You’re going to, you know, and the right client should be doing their research and go to a handful of different platforms that you appear on.

Rachel Allen (45:10.23)
Yeah, of course.

Karin Conroy (45:30.371)
So make sure that first of all, that you’re on those different platforms and you’re kind of doing the work in all of those areas. This sounds amazing. Okay, the book is Indirect Work by Carol Sanford. We’re obviously linking to that on the show page as well. Okay, so we have covered a ton. I love talking about podcasts and podcast guesting and all this good stuff. But what’s the biggest main takeaway that you’d like people…

Rachel Allen (45:49.55)
That’s awesome.

Rachel Allen (45:55.011)
Mm.

Karin Conroy (45:56.009)
after they’ve kind of sat and listened to this and thought about everything that we talked about and then like thought, my gosh, that was such a genius show. Like that was one of the better podcasts. I need to go back and watch the one where the cat jumps on the computer.

Rachel Allen (46:04.343)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (46:11.022)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (46:12.715)
That’s one of my favorite takeaways from the conversation, but related to like actual value. What’s another takeaway that you would want people to have from this episode?

Rachel Allen (46:14.54)
Yeah, same.

Yeah.

Rachel Allen (46:25.294)
So I think it is actually related. So moments like that are what form relationships. And having done this for 18 years now, I’ve seen so many businesses come and go. And the one thing that always pulls them through is the quality of their relationships with themselves, with their colleagues, with their friends, with their audience. This is hands down the best way to build that. It’s what’s working. It is what is not subject to the whims of AI or other technological development.

Karin Conroy (46:30.795)
Yes!

Karin Conroy (46:44.6)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (46:54.765)
Yes.

Rachel Allen (46:55.387)
and it works for you forever. So I just highly recommend it. No matter how you approach it, just go talk to some people. You got this.

Karin Conroy (46:58.031)
100%.

Karin Conroy (47:02.595)
Yes. Well, and I feel like this, is like kind of reiterating our last episode too, where we’re talking about kind of being human. Now we’re just talking about having these relationships and kind of using the relationships to be on podcasts and guests and whatever, but using also those podcasts to build the relationships, you know, so in a second kind of symbiotic relationship, relationship issue. Like I’m using the word relationship too many times, but that’s it. Yeah.

Rachel Allen (47:09.101)
Yeah.

Rachel Allen (47:16.44)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Allen (47:26.094)
Yeah, no, but that’s exactly what it is though.

Karin Conroy (47:32.227)
but yes, I think that’s it. Like be human, have these relationships. And, once again, in almost every one of these AI, episodes that I’ve been having recently, this is a core marketing idea. This is not new. This is not have anything to do with like how to create a website, what to do with AI. This is, this goes back to textbooks that I have that are decades old. so once again, like calm yourself, like, and

Rachel Allen (48:00.013)
Yeah

Karin Conroy (48:00.367)
Do the things that you already know inherently that are good and work and like make you a better lawyer. Yeah. Awesome. Rachel Ailin is the owner of Bolt From The Blue that I actually got through. I pronounced it correctly. Got you.

Rachel Allen (48:08.866)
Yes, I love that. That’s so good.

Rachel Allen (48:20.556)
No.

Karin Conroy (48:22.797)
to all of that stuff. She’s also going to be on the collaborator page where I will link to the previous episode that we’ve mentioned a handful of times. Now check that out with me, Rachel and Ellie, the cat.

Rachel Allen (48:32.856)
Yes. I’ll send you her headshot.

Karin Conroy (48:37.263)
We gotta do that, that’s amazing. Thank you so much for being here, this was super fun.

Rachel Allen (48:42.191)
This was so much fun. I love chatting with you. Thank you for having me.